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submitted 2 days ago by VoxAliorum@lemmy.ml to c/opensource@lemmy.ml

I do not really have a body for this. I was not aware that this is a thing and still feel like this is bs, but maybe there is an actual explanation for HDMI Forum's decision that I am missing.

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[-] thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com 54 points 2 days ago

Fuck you HDMI Forum

[-] mp3@lemmy.ca 235 points 2 days ago

I really hope we'll see TVs with DisplayPort one day.

[-] Kevlar21@piefed.social 97 points 2 days ago

I think I’d like DisplayPort over a USB-C connector. It seems like this might be an easier sell too, since the general non-techy populace is already used to everything going to USB-C (thanks EU). Maybe one day we can actually just use the same cable for everything. I realize that not all USB-C cables are equal, but maybe if TVs used USB-C, we’d see more cables supporting power, data, and video.

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 110 points 2 days ago

Mildly spicy take: USB is an unrecoverable disaster and we need an entirely unrelated team to invent something entirely new to replace it because we're never getting this sleeping bag back in the little bag it shipped in.

USB 1.1 was cool in 1996; it replaced PS/2, RS-232, Centronics parallel, several proprietary connectors, several use cases for SCSI, ADB, Apple's DIN serial ports, and probably some stuff I'm missing. There was an A plug and a B plug, main problem was both weren't very obvious which way up you were supposed to plug them. Speed was low but firewire existed for high speed connections.

USB 2.0 was cooler in 2000. The plugs and sockets were identical, the cable was similar but with better shielding, it was as fast or faster than FireWire 400. They did start introducing more plugs, like Mini-B and Micro-B, mainly for portable devices. There were also Mini-A and Micro-A, I've never personally seen them. That pretty much finished off external SCSI. Higher speed FireWire was still there if you needed faster than USB but USB 2.0 did basically everything. To indicate USB 2.0 devices and ports, they made the tongues black in contrast with USB 1.1's white tongues. Didn't really matter in practice; by the time people had devices that needed the speed, USB 2.0 ports were all machines had.

USB 3.0 took too long to arrive in 2008. The additional speed was sorely needed by then, FireWire was mostly an Apple thing, PCs had but often didn't use it, so PCs mostly didn't have anything faster than 480Mbit/s until Obama was sworn in. USB 3.0 is best thought of as a separate tech bolted on top of USB 2.0, they added 5 more wires, a ground wire and two pair of high speed data lines for 5Gbit/s full duplex. The original four wires are also in the cable for power and 480Mbit/s half-duplex. They managed to make the A plug and socket entirely forwards and backwards compatible, the 3B sockets are compatible with 2B plugs (same with micro) but 3B plugs are not compatible with 2B sockets (again, same with micro). Which means we've just added two more kinds of cable for people to keep track of! So a typical consumer now likely has a printer with a USB A-B cable, some bluetooth headset or mp3 player they're still using that has a mini-B plug, an Android smart phone with a micro-B plug, an iPod Touch with a Lightning plug because Apple are special widdle boys and girls with special widdle needs, and now an external hard drive with a 3A to micro-3B plug, which just looking at it is obviously a hack job.

Computer manufacturers didn't help. It's still common for PCs to have 2.0 ports on them for low speed peripherals like mice, keyboards, printers, other sundry HIDs, to leave 3.0 ports open for high speed devices. To differentiate these to users, 3.0 ports are supposed to be blue. In my experience, about half of them are black. I own a Dell laptop made in 2014 with 1 2.0 and 2 3.0 ports, all are black. I own two Fractal Design cases, all of their front USB ports are black. Only ports on my Asrock motherboards are blue. I've had that laptop for nearly 12 years now, I STILL have to examine the pinout to tell which one is the USB 2.0 port. My Fractal cases aren't that bad because they have no front 2.0, but I built a PC for my uncle that does have front 2.0 and 3.0 ports, and they're all black.

USB 3.1 showed up in 2013, alongside the USB-C connector, and the train came entirely off the rails. USB 3.1 offers even higher 10Gbit/s duplex throughput, maybe on the same cable as 3.0. If the port supports it. How do you tell a 3.1 port from a 3.0 port? They'll silk screen on a logo in -8 point font that'll scratch off in a month, it is otherwise physically identical. Some motherboard manufacturers break with the standard in a good way and color 3.1 capable ports a slightly teal-ish blue. USB A-B cables can carry a USB 3.1 10Gbit/s signal. But, they also introduced the USB-C connector, which is its own thing.

USB-C was supposed to be the answer to our prayers. It's almost as small as a Micro-2B connector, it's reversible like a Lightning port, it can carry a LOT of power for fast charging and even charging laptops, and it's got not one, but two sets of tx/rx pins, so it can carry high speed USB data in full duplex AND a 4k60hz DisplayPort signal AND good old fashioned 480Mbit/s USB2.0 half-duplex for peripherals. In one wire. That was the dream, anyway.

Android smart phones moved over to USB-C, a lot of laptops went mostly or entirely USB-C, PCs added one or two...and that's where we are to this day. Keyboards, mice, wireless dongles, HIDs, still all use USB-A plugs, there doesn't seem to have been any move at all to migrate. Laptops are now permanently in dongle hell as bespoke ports like HDMI are disappearing, yet monitors and especially televisions are slow to adopt DP over USB-C.

Also, about half of the USB-C cables on the market are 4-wire USB 2.0 cables. There are no USB-C data cables, just D+ and D- plus power. They're phone charging cables; they're sufficient for plugging a phone into a wall wart or car charger but they often don't carry laptop amounts of power and they don't carry high speed data or video.

USB 3.2 turned up in 2017, added the ability to do two simultaneous 3.1 10Gbit/s connections in the same cable, a boon for external SSDs, retroactively renamed 3.0 and 3.1 to 3.2 Gen 1 and 3.2 Gen 2, with 3.2 being 3.2 Gen 2x2, changed to different case logos to match, pissed in the fireplace and started jabbering about Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt was an Intel thing to put PCIe lanes out mini DisplayPort cables, usually for the purposes of connecting external GPUs to laptops but also for general purpose high speed data transfer. Well, around this time they decided to transition to USB-C connectors for Thunderbolt.

Problem: They use a lighting bolt logo to denote a Thunderbolt port. Lightning bolt, or angled squiggle lines, have been used to mean "high speed", "Power delivery", "Apple Lightning", and now "Thunderbolt."

"Power delivery" sometimes but not always denoted by a yellow or orange tongue means that port delivers power even with the device turned off...or something. And has nothing to do with the fact that USB-C cables now have chips in them to negotiate with power bricks and devices for how much power can be delivered, and nobody marks the cables as such, so you just have to know what your cables can do. They're nearly impossible to shop for, and if you want to set up a personal system of "my low-speed cables are black, my high speed cables are white, my high power cables are red" fuck you, your Samsung will come with a white 2.0 cable and nobody makes a high power red cable.

USB4 is coming out now, it's eaten Thunderbolt to gain its power, it'll be able to do even higher speed links if you get yet another physically indistinguishable cable, and if you hold it upside down it'll pressure wash your car, but only Gigabyte Aorus motherboards support that feature as of yet.

The "fistful of different cables to keep track of" is only getting worse as we head into the USB4 era and it needs to be kicked in the head and replaced entirely.

[-] cazssiew@lemmy.world 42 points 2 days ago

Situation: There are 15 competing standards, and they're all USB.

[-] Ferk@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I don't think we would be throwing USB-C away completelly, because it even became mandated by law in EU with the goal of trying to slow down the rate at which people generate trash by getting new cables and power bricks for every new generation of connectors.

But I agree that at the very least there should be a clear labeling mandated by consumer protection laws as well.. it's a nightmare and a scenario that opens the door for a lot of scams... this is even made worse by the fact that nowadays you can even have malicious software running inside of the connector of a cable plugged into an extremely capable port without realizing it, messing up with your device even though the only thing you wanted was to charge it.

[-] webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 24 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

The renaming while still selling it with older packaging for years has been angering me since it happend.

Honestly it would not be so much of a problem if things where actually labeled appropriately with all the actual specs and support features on the package but its more profitable to keep you guessing (and going for the higher priced one just in case)

They do the same thing with Bluetooth audio transmission usb, their “high quality audio” and “ps5 compatible” but does not tell me wether it supports aptx or not?

Also the whole “buy a product clearly pictured with usb A type connector, receive a USB C type connector variant, if lucky, with an added adapter.

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[-] ms_lane@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

FireWire was mostly an Apple thing, PCs had but often didn't use it, so PCs mostly didn't have anything faster than 480Mbit/s until Obama was sworn in.

It also took even longer than that to get 480mbits.

Firewire could to ~45MB/s back in G3 iMac days, USB2 was stuck on ~25MB/s with BOT for years until after USB3 and we finally got UASP.

[-] Allero@lemmy.today 7 points 2 days ago
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[-] Damage@feddit.it 12 points 2 days ago

Username checks out

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[-] IMALlama@lemmy.world 50 points 2 days ago

Display port over USB-C is totally a thing. With things like USB-PD USB seem to be getting dangerously close to becoming the standard for everything. The cables are a wreck though and are way too hard for a layperson to tell apart.

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[-] anon5621@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

They are exist but it Chinese dark horses manufacturera liki kiwi

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[-] exocortex@discuss.tchncs.de 49 points 2 days ago

💸 (and control) is the reason.

[-] BoycottTwitter@lemmy.zip 54 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

If you want change you got to direct your comments to the HDMI forum. Here we can talk about it forever and if they never see anything they won't change. I sent the following email to: admin@hdmiforum.org

Dear HDMI Forum,

I was recently saw the news that the HDMI forum was blocking open source implementations of the HDMI 2.1 specifications and I want to express that I really believe this is a bad idea. I hope the HDMI Forum will consider allowing it. I can't say I understand what the concern is or the reason for blocking it but I really doubt that whatever issue is envisioned will actually come to fruition, instead I believe that allowing open source implementations will be beneficial for adoption of the standard and since if I understand correctly the licensing fees are based on hardware sold so having open source code will of course not exempt anyone from HDMI licensing rules.

Thank you so much for your consideration,

(Name)

Maybe it's not perfect (I already wished I worded one sentence better) but I think what matters most is just trying your best and using your voice whenever you can. Be sure to send your email too, the more they receive hopefully the higher the chances that this works but of course be sure to use your own wording, I just put that here for an example.

[-] spicehoarder@lemmy.zip 21 points 2 days ago

I'm at the point where I think it would be easier to switch to display port

[-] Crozekiel@lemmy.zip 8 points 2 days ago

I can't find TVs with display port, probably because of "big HDMI". :(

[-] muusemuuse@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 days ago

Fun fact: DisplayPort can carry hdmi signals. So you can connect a cheap cable with DP on one end and HDMI on the other. The only catch is it goes DP->HDMI, not the other way around.

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[-] chillpanzee@lemmy.ml 66 points 2 days ago

maybe there is an actual explanation for HDMI Forum’s decision that I am missing.

HDMI has never been an open standard (to the best of my understanding anyway). You've always needed to be an adopter or a member of HDMI forum to get the latest (or future) specs. So it's not like they've just rejected a new idea. The rejection is fully consistent with their entire history of keeping the latest versions on lockdown.

Standards organizations like HDMI Forum look like a monolith from the outside (like "they should explain their thinking here") but really they are loosely coupled amalgamations of hundreds of companies, all of whom are working hard to make sure that (a) their patents are (and remain) essential, and that (b) nothing mandatory in a new version of the standard threatens their business. Think of it more like the UN General Assembly than a unified group of participants. Their likely isn't a unified thinking other than that many Forum members are also participants in the patent licensing pool, so giving away something for which they collect royalties is just not a normal thought. Like.... they're not gonna give something away without getting something in return.

I was a member of HDMI Forum for a brief while. Standards bodies like tihs are a bit of a weird world where motivations are often quite opaque.

[-] Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 2 days ago

HDMI has never been an open standard (to the best of my understanding anyway). You’ve always needed to be an adopter or a member of HDMI forum to get the latest (or future) specs. So it’s not like they’ve just rejected a new idea.

Okay not publishing the spec is still the same, but something else is new nonetheless.

AMD is an adopter*, they have the spec and they implemented a driver for 2.1 intended to be open sourced in Linux. But they were still blocked from publishing it. For HDMI 1.4 that wasn't an issue yet from what I've found (though it's always hard to search for non-existence). Open source implementations of HDMI 1.4, even in hardware description languages, seem to exist.

*you can search for "ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES" here to confirm for yourself

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[-] rumba@lemmy.zip 15 points 2 days ago

Translation: Nothing's happening until someone needs to get bribed.

/s

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[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 81 points 2 days ago

Can we just do display port then?

[-] gnuplusmatt@reddthat.com 32 points 2 days ago

displayport is starting to appear on some higher end tvs

[-] take6056@feddit.nl 13 points 2 days ago

Can you name or link some models? I'd like to consider my options but haven't found any yet.

[-] randomaside@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 days ago

Off the top of my head, Hisense does dp over usbc on the u8q series of TVs.

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[-] DonutsRMeh@lemmy.world 126 points 2 days ago

That's why HDMI needs to die and display port needs to take over. The TV industry is too big for that to happen of course. They make a shit ton of money off of HDMI

[-] HelloRoot@lemy.lol 106 points 2 days ago

but maybe there is an actual explanation for HDMI Forum’s decision that I am missing.

Licensing money.

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[-] Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

The HDMI forum blow goats, every month, by the silvery light of the moon.

[-] cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 77 points 2 days ago

AMD should remove the HDMI port from all of their GPUs as a nice F.U. to the HDMI forum. They shouldn't be paying the licensing fees if they are not allowed to make full use of the hardware.

[-] NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de 42 points 2 days ago
[-] dohpaz42@lemmy.world 30 points 2 days ago

There would be uproar, but like the audio jack on phones people would come around. All it would take is one big enough company to pull it off, and the rest would follow.

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[-] DylanMc6@lemmy.ml 39 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

let's make usb and displayport open-source drivers. seriously!

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[-] ABetterTomorrow@sh.itjust.works 37 points 2 days ago

Time to kill HDMI with USB 4/TB bring those cost way down.

[-] NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml 34 points 2 days ago

Display Port would be better suited to do all of those things.

[-] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 days ago

Usb-c supports DisplayPort! Long live open standards!

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[-] Hupf@feddit.org 17 points 2 days ago

Normalize USB-c with screws and we have a deal.

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[-] NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de 46 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Yes, this isn't new but it's resurfacing thanks to the Steam Machine. Basically (off my memory), part of your title is accurate: AMD did create a FOSS driver with HDMI 2.1 which does not violate HDMI forum requirements, but the HDMI forum still vetoed it. I don't know if it would necessarily "disclose the specification" as the first part of your title suggests, but I didn't dig into the details enough to say for certain.

Basically a dick move by HDMI. Maybe Valve can push their weight on this, we'll see.

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[-] ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org 6 points 2 days ago

this is not new, but its time for the hdmi forum to fade into irrelevance

[-] Midnitte@beehaw.org 33 points 2 days ago

Be a damn shame if someone leaked the driver.

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[-] PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 18 points 2 days ago

Be a shame if it leaked on the internet.

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this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2025
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