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Wayland is superior. Yeah I said it.
That is just like your opinion man - the dude
People say lots of things.
It’s the best. Everyone says so.
My gripe with wayland is how it made desktop environments less composable.
With x11 you could sort of mix and match your DE and WM. I could have all the “it just works” everyday computing from Gnome/KDE/xfce/whatever, and the workflow-boost from a Tiling WM. In some cases, making it work was a bodge but it worked.
Now, with Wayland, your WM is effectively your DE. It’s now a constant choice of “do I want tiling? Or do I want to print something, or be able to change my resolution, or to plug a USB stick and mount it without remembering the arcane incantations”.
I just want to be able to print something, and have virtual workspaces per monitor. I could live without tiling.
What no systemd?
Why are we afraid of systemd again? /gen
I came in late w/ arch-based systems so legitimately don’t know the lore.
"You can't have programs that do multiple things! Any program that is multi-use is ebil. Standardized syntax and functionality between different related systems? NO! PROGRAM DO ONE THING!"
even when said "one program" is actually 69 (nice) different binaries
Off the top of my head, in no particular order:
- Systemd and its components are responsible for too many essential system functions. Init, services, mounts, timers, logging, network config, hostname, DNS resolution, locale, devices, home directories, boot, NTP sync, and I'm sure there are others, can be handled by systemd or one of its components.
- Systemd violates the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well". Systemd is a complex solution to a complex problem: this thread has several comments by a former Arch Linux maintainer that explains why they've switched to systemd, and why the earlier method of using single initscripts was unsustainable.
- It is owned and maintained by Red Hat, known for its many controversies.
- Some people just don't like modern things and think that the Linux ecosystem peaked in the 1980s.
Most (though not all) of the popular complaints are completely unreasonable. Those people usually see themselves as moral and righteous and expect the world at large to follow their personal creed. I especially consider the UNIX philosophy to be outdated, and strict adherence to it to be an obstacle for modern apps and systems.
I have some issues with systemd, and I don't like that one for-profit company has such a massive influence over the entire Linux ecosystem, but I have to acknowledge that it works, it works well enough to counter my personal issues, and that the people whose opinion matters the most (specifically Debian and Arch maintainers) chose it for a good reason.
Now I want a shirt that says "Linux ecosystem peaked in 1980s"
Some people just don’t like modern things and think that the Linux ecosystem peaked in the 1980s.
Linux was released in 1991.
It's called a hyperbole.
(edit) But, honestly, it's still kind of accurate. Many of the most significant software suites that define the Linux ecosystem in more recent decades were written in the 80s or earlier. X (the display protocol) was released in 1984, and X11 was finalized in 1987. GNU Emacs was released in 1985. Vi, in 1976. UNIX System V, from which sysvinit and compatible init systems were adopted, was released in 1983. It's not a stretch to say that certain people want to regress to the 1980s state, even if the kernel wasn't around.
This sign won't stop me! I can't read!
My personal reasons for disliking systemd (note: I still use systemd):
- The lead developer of systemd has said multiple times that we should be fine with break POSIX if it means developing faster.
- systemd has massive attack surface, making it easier to exploit and result in privilege escalation. It is a highly complex and large codebase that really shouldnt be given the trust of PID 0
- systemd is not portable or modular.
- It only just barely got musl support. Hope to see it improve in the future.
- systemd is much slower than other inits (eg. dinit, s6, openrc)
- systemd being the go-to init encourages developers to more heavily depend on it, making it difficult for distros without systemd
The biggest feature I like about systemd is run0, though I wish it was a drop in replacement for sudo. Secondly, I do like that services can be sandboxed.
- It's developed for linux and there is literally 0 linux distributions that are POSIX-compliant, also standard is dead.
- It doesn't, also moving it to any other PID won't make any difference.
- It is modular (IIRC there is only three mandatory parts) and portable.
- Was completely on musl side (also musl is as much not portable and modular as systemd 🙃 and in every practical way worse than glibc).
- It's not an init, nor does it present itself like this. Do you have any benchmarks that show this slowness when doing comparable operations?
- Why exactly depending on a stable system component is a bad thing? Distros without systemd are moving against the stream, obviously there going to be some problems.
For me the portability issue wasn't really solved. I still work on embedded devices where I need to squeeze out every cycle and every byte of memory i can. Running systemd is an automatic no go, but in the *nix way of doing things I do have other options, so that's good.
But the more people depend on the systemd ecosystem rather than an open standard, the availability for me to use other projects goes down. Again there are usually options, but it's sad to see no one really thought about that when everyone jumped on board.
I also love the BSDs and other Unix systems. I remember decades ago downloading FreeBSD on my Gentoo box and was able to load the same Gnome desktop on both systems. Two totally different operating systems running the same UI. It sucks that targeting systemd might make software not run on other *nix operating systems
I live programs written in rust. They are quick & lightweight & fun.
Know what i hate ? Installing rust programs with cargo. It's slow & grinds my Chromebook to a halt.
I mean, that's not a Rust issue per se. It's only noticeable because cargo is much better than most build systems, and hence is an actual option for distribution of software. But there should ideally always be a binary distribution. I know some people like to build everything by themselves, but I get it, it's annoying.
For people who do this, is the purpose to ensure you are not getting a bad binary which has some malicious code compiled in?
If yes, isn’t it more difficult to check all the source code yourself? You may as well trust a binary where the author has confirmed a hash of the binary. Unless you really are checking every single line of source code. But then I wonder how you get anything else done.
The idea is that someone is checking the code. And by building it yourself, you can at least ensure that you're getting what's built from the code. It is possible that some malicious stuff was inserted while building the binary that doesn't show up in the source code. Building from source solves that problem.
Reproducible builds try to solve that problem by generating some provenance from a third party. A middle ground can be building the binary using something like GitHub Actions, since that can be audited by others. That comes with its own can of worms since GH is owned by M$, but I digress.
So it is technically sane to do it, just not very practical in my view. But for lesser known apps, I do sometimes build from source.
Yeah. Although Wayland is NOT modular, as on the compositor taking care of things that probably shouldn't be controlled by it, and Rust's compiler doesn't support every architecture under the sun, unlike C.
Rust is an ecosystem that works almost, but not quite, entirely unlike C.
"the compositor takes care of things it shouldn't" said the x11 user while using their display server that also manages printers, and also provides peripheral drivers, and also manages opengl drivers, and also provides a full graphic toolkit, and also provides remote access. And all that while treating multiple monitors like a single big monitor with a single shared refresh rate, and with no support for HDR of trackpad gestures. Yes, it really is upsetting when the screen compositor manages screen recording and double buffering. And remember x11 is so modular that the graphic server is part of the driver stack and so must be implemented for every GPU out there.
P.s.: anyone that thinks the Unix philosophy has any value should not touch xorg with a 10 meter pole. It does many things, badly. But sure, it does allow any unprivileged program to read and write to the framebuffer, so be my guest if that's your thing.
I believe both are shit in their own ways. Wayland has some good ideas, and so does X11; as such, I believe there ought to be a third display server in the works.
If I built this, there would be a third, much larger one labeled "Snaps".
Wayland needs more time in the oven
Its that Edward Norton?
Everyone else laughs at you, you might as well get to join in.
Not my Linux community. The fascist right doesn't make up allyhe linux community. They are just the loudest snowflakes in it.
The fuck does politics have to do with anything about this post? Sounds like the left are the loudest snowflakes around these parts of Lemmy, can’t accept a simple meme as is without dragging politics into it.
Found one!
Are you angry that someone is critical of fascists? I wonder why that would be.
Yeah you can call it annoyed, there is absolutely no reason for politics to be dragged into a non-political meme, the radical left of Lemmy can’t see how hypocritical they can be.
It's because many of the people who hate on Rust and Wayland do so because they think these technologies are somehow too "woke" and not for any technical reason. I have no actual numbers for this though, it's just anecdotal based on my experience with a few popular YouTube videos I came across. And it looks like lots of others agree, so this meme comes off as political, even if that's not what was intended.
Oh, I thought the implication was that the imposition of rust and wayland were fascist. Particularly wayland, with the corporation, IBM, and its ruthless efforts to eliminate the competition and force everybody off X11.
Either way, choice is good. It's part of, and product of, Free Software philosophy.
@bernhoftbret You forgot systemd
I think everyone has moved on at this point. Systemd became the standard more than a decade ago
So what you're saying is, the guy in the last frame should be laughing?
this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2025
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