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submitted 1 month ago by BandanaBug@piefed.social to c/linux@lemmy.ml

Normally I always forget why I still keep thinking about switching back to Windows. Today was a great reminder. Linux can be frustrating. This post is somewhat about awareness and partly about me learning about other peoples experiences. I updated my CachyOS as usual. There were some system packages upgraded and I got the notification to reboot. Figuring I'd do it later I left after some time and the PC went to sleep. Upon returning the screen stayed black. Even upon forced reboot. Remembering I was using Limine with BTRFS snapshots I tried multiple previous snapshots but to no avail. I remember this happened before. So now I face another reinstall.. This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating. I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows..

Onto NixOS for me. A big dive but it seems very stable which might be just what i need. I feel like the philosophy of NixOS combined with a graphical store to install programs and what not seems like a great solution.

What would your ultimate distro be like?

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[-] Sunsofold@lemmings.world 57 points 1 month ago

This will sound like heresy to some, but get away from the bleeding edge. You probably don't need the absolute latest version of every little thing. It can feel cool knowing you know how to fix a borked install but actually having to do so sucks. Dump the hype and get to something stable for your daily driver. If you want to experiment, do it on another drive/machine. Building a custom rocketship is cool, but you should probably build it without breaking the truck you use to go get parts.

[-] curbstickle@anarchist.nexus 23 points 1 month ago

I'm going to call this another vote for Debian

[-] Specter@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago

I was gonna say the same thing.

For most beginners who just want their PC to work, the obvious choice should be Mint for older hardware, and Universal Blue’s Fedora-based images (Bluefin or Aurora depending on the preferred desktop).

Of course, since OP mentioned NixOS that is an option as well. But it should be the stable version, and it is not beginner friendly like the other two.

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[-] BandanaBug@piefed.social 2 points 1 month ago

This is a good point. Some distros are on the other end of the spectrum of being too slow (it seems) to update but you might be onto something.

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[-] Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.club 31 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Pardon me for asking so ... but if you yearn for the "stability" ("simplicity"?) of Windows why not use a Linux distro with an approach more similar to that?

So something not Arch based, ... and even tho NixOS almost kinda is the correct direction (for an arch-ish thing), I got the feeling you don't really want to configure your system & potentially upkeep that config?

Also to note that the actual issue wasn't fully diagnosed. Reinstalling the full os to fix an update is fairly extreme for your mainstream Linux these days.

But to be at least a bit on topic - bcs I need "simplicity" & "stability" at times when I can't even (for months on end) I use Tumbleweed (rolling distro).

[-] ibot@feddit.org 6 points 1 month ago

Fully agree!

As a Linux user for more than 10 years now, I can not really understand why so many people switch from Windows to CachyOS.

Yes, CachyOS is great. In general I see the advantage of Arch based distros, but only if one knows what they are doing. It's great on fresh installs, but over time users need to fix issues and make decisions and this only works if they know what they are doing.

Similar wis NixOS. Great distro, but not for low maintanance and beginners. If you just want something that runs super stable and you don't need to fix anything, go for Debian. And there are a lot of options between Debian and CachyOS.

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[-] curbstickle@anarchist.nexus 27 points 1 month ago

What would your ultimate distro be like?

... Debian.

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[-] undrwater@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago

Why reinstall instead of just repairing the issue at hand?

We had to do that in Windows too.

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[-] yesman@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago

You must have been of Microslop for a while if you think frustrating issues on update is a Linux thing. Just last a couple weeks ago, Microsoft released a security update that locked people out of their "C" drive. (In Windows, this is bad)

[-] BandanaBug@piefed.social 5 points 1 month ago

Windows sucks donkey balls for sure. Between shoving AI down your throat and indeed also messing up things or weird ass issues it's a shit fest too. But my point is that people are more adjusted to it and there's more resources to fix the issue. And in my experience it's less of a OS breaking experience.

[-] MrsDoyle@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago

I've found the opposite - using Linux on my PC has been a breeze. I expected drama connecting my phone and e-reader, but no. Plain sailing, everything just works. I'm so glad I jumped when I did, hearing some of the recent Windows nonsense.

I'm on Zorin if it helps. The free version.

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[-] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

How long have you been using Linux, so on the one hand you still keep thinking about Windows. And on the other hand you already progressed to an Arch derivate, use BTRFS, snapshots, a non-standard bootloader and all that stuff?

I like NixOS. But it's really for people with too much spare time to learn new programming languages, abstract concepts and weird quirks. It's great. But sometimes you'll also do a simple nixos-rebuild switch and it'll greet you with 4 pages of gibberish. Or you'll spend 3h packaging some weird Python stuff, because you can't just install and run it like on a regular distro 😅

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[-] UxyIVrljPeRl@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

Im always surprised how different the windows expirience seems to be for many people or do they ignore all the searching for drivers, editing registry entries, running sketchy bats, trying compatibility modes until something works, random blue screens, shutdowns that are reboots.

[-] Hawke@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

What do you mean? I hear that “SFC /SCANNOW” fixes everything!

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[-] PanArab@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 month ago

Use something stable and boring like LinuxMint. No issues in 7 years.

[-] Mordikan@kbin.earth 9 points 1 month ago

If I'm being completely honest, it sounds like you hit a problem and then just kinda gave up (I'm not trying to sound mean or anything - please don't take it that way).

If I were in that situation I would probably drop to a terminal (ex. CTRL+ALT+3) and try to find what failed (journalctl). Especially if the screen just stayed black I would probably wonder what packages I just updated. I'm not going to remember, but it's probably something graphical. Maybe I installed nvidia dkms packages and I have a mismatch or I decided to try out a different login manager and it happens to not support Wayland or something. Snapshots would be my last resort, not my first.

As far as NixOS, I love it. Its incredibly stable and the declarative language is really handy to write in. I'm not aware of any graphical store though (outside of maybe some github project). Its declarative meaning you write the configuration.nix file and import any secondary files into the config. And packages are installed declaratively:

environment.systemPackages = with pkgs; [
    pkgs.gnome-tweaks
    pkgs.gnome-control-center
    pkgs.gnome-terminal
}

I would say if you are wanting GUI that NixOS is probably not a great choice. I mean just to get installed package version, you're going to have to do a one-liner (mine for example):

#!/bin/bash 
find /run/current-system/sw/bin/ -type l -exec readlink {} \; | sed -E 's|[^-]+-([^/]+)/.*|\1|g' | sort -ui

If I'm being completely honest, it sounds like you hit a problem and then just kinda gave up (I'm not trying to sound mean or anything - please don't take it that way).

I got the same impression. Which is fine if that's someone's approach, but that same person probably shouldn't be on an arch-based distro if that's the case.

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[-] Peasley@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

no "ultimate distro", but i do wish there was a bigger culture of "no regressions for users"

Plasma 6 has been a series of regressions for me, such that i find my computer a little less functional almost every time i update.

That said i still like it miles better than mac or Windows, which are even worse about this

but i do wish there was a bigger culture of “no regressions for users”

Isn't that basically Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce (and most other DEs not named COSMIC, GNOME or KDE Plasma)?

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[-] Nibodhika@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

This is exactly what I think every time someone recommends CachyOS or Manjaro to new users. Arch is great, but it expects the user to know how to deal with things, it expects user to read the news and it pulls the rug periodically because it expects you to be able to figure things out.

In your case in particular I don't think it was Cachy on its own, otherwise we would have seen other users affected, but still, it's likely that the Arch philosophy got you because of something you changed without even remembering and now with the update your config is no longer backwards compatible.

NixOS is great, but it's a very different paradigm, you will not be able to install things from the graphical interface as you're expected to declare your system. And it can never be compatible with a graphical installation as that would beat the whole purpose of reproductible builds.

I think what you're looking for might be something like Bazzite, where the core system is immutable but you get user space freedom. But personally, if 0 downtime is your goal NixOS is better, as you can rollback to previous generations of your system if something goes wrong, but to get that you have to pay the price of declaring your whole system which might be too steep to pay for some.

[-] Obnomus@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 month ago

I know its frustrating when this happens. But there is something called arch-chroot, its a program to fix your messesd up os. New users don't know about this, but as you keep using Linux, you get familiar to these programs. It takes few mins to fix broken system using arch-chroot. I hopw your system won't break anymore.

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Why sometimes Linux is hard to switch to

Switching is easy. Sticking to it is harder and involves relearning most of your activities in a new context.

So now I face another reinstall…

I'd honestly think that CachyOS was more 'sturdy'. Though, I suppose it's curious that you don't mention anything about your troubleshooting attempts. Beyond your rollbacks in hopes of resolving the issue*. If you don't like/want to (learn to) troubleshoot, then reconsider if CachyOS is your home.

FWIW, over (almost) 4 years of Fedora Atomic, I was only once 'forced' to reinstall; which happened in the first week (or so). And that was 100% a user error.

This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating.

This isn't recognizable to me. Would you be so kind to clarify/elaborate? Perhaps with an example even?

I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…

The only time I felt this, was when I just cold-turkey switched to Fedora Silverblue and bashed my head to the wall when trying to implement Madaidan's hardening 😅. But, again, that was just very naive.

Onto NixOS for me.

NixOS is definitely based. So go for it.

What would your ultimate distro be like?

Stateless, and hardened AF. So, probably an amalgamation between your favorite security-focused Linux (be it secureblue or Qubes OS) and NixOS for its impermanence module.

[-] BandanaBug@piefed.social 3 points 1 month ago

Yes you're totally right. It's like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it's fast as hell and a lot of fun. But on the other hand: if there's no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?

[-] SecondComingOfPheusie@programming.dev 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Thanks OP for replying! Though, I'm a little bit confused as you had already replied to this specific comment. Perhaps you meant to reply to this comment instead?

Regardless...

It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun.

If that analogy was used to describe Arch, then yeah; I can definitely see that.

But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?

So, if you allow me, I would like to slightly rephrase the main question to the following sub-questions (and try to discuss them as we go):

  • What problem are we even trying to solve? Answer: The problem of broken/borked systems due to every-day activities. Literally none of the other systems/OSes in your life do this. Your phone doesn't. Your console doesn't. Your non-Linux PC doesn't. Your car doesn't. Your TV doesn't. Your refrigerator doesn't. You get the drill. So how is it even conceivable that desktop Linux is the only one that hasn't solved this yet?
  • Why is this even a hard problem to solve on desktop Linux? Answer: Because it allows far more control, agency and ownership compared to all the previously mentioned systems/OSes. Heck, you can just sudo rm -rf / your system/OS into oblivion. It is almost an oxymoron for your system to simultaneously
    • grant you all the freedom to do whatever you want
    • and take away that very same freedom in order to preserve itself
  • What fail-safes even exist? Answer: Below you may find a non-exhaustive list including a short discussion.
    • Take away the freedom of the user 😅. This is literally what both Android and ChromeOS have done. And, to be absolutely fair, to great success. Your grandma wouldn't care much for the freedom that Linux allows; she is more interested in a reliable system. This is a very effective way to make that happen. As for desktop Linux, I'm unaware of any distros that go this route. The furthest I've seen distros go, is that they won't commit to support all kinds of uses. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine in my book.
    • Actual attempts to make the system less brittle. This is where it gets a bit more interesting. Desktop Linux shits itself rather easily, honestly. It should be a lot more robust. To give you an example, IIRC, I played once a little with /etc/pam.d and my laptop didn't boot into the OS the very next time. Like, I get it; it's important and all, but we should be able to do better than that. While I can't show you any examples - as I failed to find where I had seen them before - I do know that some existing systems are able to NOT piss themselves whenever an important subdirectory of /etc is absent. Arguably, NixOS provides the best example of this in practice. But I digress...
    • Keeping track of known good states and allowing the user a return to them. Basically, this refers to rollback functionality, but is not limited to them. Other examples include the factory resets made possible by bootc's install reset and Pop_OS' recovery partition. A LOT can be said about this and its many variations/implementations, but this suffices for the sake of brevity.
  • Are there any downsides to any of the aforementioned fail-safes? Answer:
    • Taking away the user's freedom would be like taking Linux' soul out. This would be a categorical error. So this can't be done UNLESS the user desires it for themselves. But, as I said earlier, I'm unaware of any distro (besides Android or ChromeOS) that has gone down this route.
    • Making the system less brittle is unfortunately not that easy, it seems. Perhaps systemd can make some changes in hopes of addressing this. Otherwise, it seems that (some) atomic distros are at least pushing changes to this effect. But aside from NixOS, I'm unaware of any that have provided a mature solution. While it definitely fares better than most, it's not as if NixOS is unbreakable either...
    • Rollback functionality has slowly but surely become a common occurrence on desktop Linux. But, it isn't sufficient by itself. OpenSUSE basically pioneered this when they launched Tumbleweed, but it became obvious that this wasn't deemed enough by itself when MicroOS came along. Your experience also confirms this. Hence, this might give a false sense of security. Don't get me wrong; there's definitely something brilliant going on here. But, by itself, it has proven to be insufficient.
  • So..., is the if-clause satisfied? Answer: Nope. Hence it should be easy to understand why they're not doing it. A perfect solution with no downsides simply doesn't exist.
  • Is all hope lost? Can't we do anything? Answer: I hope it's more than clear by now that it's a hard problem. But, while not perfect, there are some steps one might take for their benefit:
    • Limit change. A broken/borked system/OS implies that it wasn't before. So, something happened, i.e a change occurred, after which it shat itself. So..., the solution should be rather easy: just make no changes, right? Yeah..., that's unfortunately not how we use our systems. But, we can limit it; which is where slow-moving distros come in. Downside: They have to move slowly...
    • Compartmentalize. Why should installing a piece of software make changes to your base system? We don't see this in NixOS. Nor do we see this on Android or ChromeOS. Downsides: Integration isn't best yet. And, you have to trust more instances, which ain't ideal for security/supply-chain. But, if you insist, choose your poison:
      • AppImage
      • Brew
      • Distrobox
      • Flatpak
      • Nix
      • Sysext
      • Snap
      • Toolbx
      • ... (Etc. You get the drill.)
    • Ensure that every state is a known good state by excessive testing. This is kinda hard to do on your own. But..., what if your (base) system is literally the same as the one tested by your distro provider? And you know that they're testing it (perhaps even excessively) in hopes that they may find a bug/breakage before it ships to you. This is not 100% fail safe, either. But it's a lot easier to test than the (effectively infinitely) many permutations allowed otherwise. This is kinda the route some atomic distros have taken. Most notably, Fedora Atomic and its many derivatives. Downstream like uBlue (so, Bazzite etc.) fares even better at this. Downside: I don't think you can achieve this without going atomic. Which, is absolutely fine for some of us, but -crucially- not for all of us (yet)...
    • Rollbacks. We shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good. Combined with (some of) the previous points, this amounts to a reasonably robust system. Downside: Briefly discussed earlier. Refer to that please.

There's perhaps more that can be written on this topic. But, I've already become tired and this text has already become quite lengthy. If you managed to come this far, thank you! Much appreciated!

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[-] oz1sej@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Ubuntu was the first Linux distro I tried, and I've never tried anything else, across three laptops. I've never experienced problems like the ones you describe.

[-] klangcola@reddthat.com 5 points 1 month ago

You might be interested in an immutable distro. Like Bazzite or other Silverblue / Ublue flavoured system. They are recent but not bleeding edge, deploy well tested images that apply as all-or-nothing. Very stable, very featurful :)

[-] BandanaBug@piefed.social 3 points 1 month ago

Actually not a bad idea. Just downloaded bazzite to install to try it out. Thanks for the tip!

[-] remotedev@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago

I just switch from pop os to bazzite. Bit of a changing going to fedora for the first time but overall I like it. Good for someone who wants a Windows experience, comes with steam already installed

[-] Eggymatrix@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago

Under linux you have the option to not reboot after an update, use that power wisely.

You did not, so you took a risk and lost.

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[-] Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

So I made the jump to Linux a few weeks ago - I used to use it a lot in the 90s but I've forgotten pretty much everything so I listened to the general advice and went with mint. I'd recommended it. So far it's been great, had anticipated issues with my drivers but nothing I couldn't sort out in the GUI. There are distro options out there that will give you fewer issues - but if you like problem solving and wanted to challenge yourself, enjoy!

[-] just_another_person@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Every modern distro keeps previous kernel boot entries available at boot time. You don't need to use snapshots to simply not boot a potentially problematic kernel update.

There are literally near zero reasons to ever have to reinstall any Linux install. Moving to a more complex distribution isn't going to solve your problem here, which is just learning a different workflow. That workflow being more akin to software development workflows: if something fucks up, just revert.

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[-] GunnarGrop@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think NixOS is a superb choice if you have the time and energy to invest in it. I'm currently using Guix System (a GNU fork of Nix) and I'm very very happy with it. Previously I've been on openSUSE Tumbleweed because I thought the most important thing for me was btrfs with an easy snapshot system. But then, one day, when I was writing ansible playbooks to configure my OS I realized that what I care most about is declarative configurations. Now I've completely stopped using ansible for my laptop/desktop, and just rely upon native Guix configuration. I love it.

I do still run MicroOS on all of my servers because it "just works" and I think transactional systems are great for servers. Recently, however, I've been thinking about trying out NixOS/Guix System as my server OS of choice, but we'll see how that goes.

If you're willing to put in the time, I think you'll love NixOS.

Edit: Nix/Guix are also transactional.

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[-] webkitten@piefed.social 4 points 1 month ago

I've been loving Mint; the one thing I missed was WoW Classic but I finally found out how to get it to run under Steam and it's been relatively great! <3

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[-] EponymousBosh@awful.systems 4 points 1 month ago

I see people recommending Debian but you also said you enjoy tinkering, so I'd recommend SpiralLinux. It's basically Debian but it uses BTRFS so you can roll back to a previous snapshot if you break something. I don't think Spiral has updated to Trixie yet so you'd need to manually upgrade but that's not too big a hassle if you do it immediately.

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[-] anon5621@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

First of all U don't need to reinstall anything switch to tty firstly and find out what wrong happened second u can boot in usual live cachyos iso chroot in ur main system and reinstall all packages of system it might help but better firsrly understand what caused this

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[-] theannoyingfruit@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

I have found bazzite to be very stable for my needs. My use case is mainly gaming with some light productivity. I have had very few problems.

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[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 month ago

So first of all, you could likely still access your drives when you boot from a USB. Goes for any OS

secondly: if you play with fire, don't complain about the blisters. And yo be clear, with fire I don't mean Linux, with fire I mean specialty distro

You need to ask yourself what you want. If you want something shiny and cool that does certain security things that are awesome but not really that needed for the average Joe, then fine, go with whatever.

I on the other hand need a Linux distro that works, that I can trust. I have been using Kubuntu (Ubuntu with KDE UI) for over the last 20. There are bugs, like everywhere, but bugs like "this little widget doesn't respond right", not "oh my OS suicided again"

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this post was submitted on 27 Mar 2026
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Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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