217
submitted 9 months ago by ooli@lemmy.world to c/movies@lemmy.world
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 91 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Sir Terry Pratchett said, regarding fantasy:

“J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.”

I think pretty much the same can be said for Herbert (and before him Asimov) when it comes to science-fiction...

(Reading the article, though, it seems Herbert might have been a bit more of an arse about other authors being influenced by him than Tolkien or Asimov ever were...)

[-] TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

GNU Terry Pratchett

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 10 points 9 months ago

I was never a giant fan of the Lensmen books, but there's a lot of Doc Smith's story in Star Wars.

A multi species police force with telepathic powers and a symbol known and respected on all worlds?

For the uninitiated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 55 points 9 months ago

Stop me if you heard this one...

A youthful squire, with the aid of a knight errant, his trusty steed, and a powerful wizard, go to rescue the beautiful princess from the evil Black Knight and his fire breathing dragon.

Both Lucas and Herbert were plugged into fundamental cultural mythology:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

[-] VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world 26 points 9 months ago

And they did that very differently. Lucas played the archetypes straight while Herbert deconstructed them.

[-] Toribor@corndog.social 21 points 9 months ago

I was just talking about this, about how Paul is not a typical hero. Sure he's the 'chosen one of prophecy', but only because of generations of genetic manipulation to create someone with his abilities and centuries of spreading superstition and prophecies. Even then his actions are only sort of heroic in that he helps free the Fremen but thus drives them into a holy war against the entire empire.

It's a really cool way of leaning on existing tropes in a self-aware way.

[-] Fungah@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

Paul also bailed before things ran their course, leaving Leto to become supreme jabbs of the universe. He chose what he thought was the lesser ofany evils and was still stacked by the guilt from the choice. Not very common for heroes to just bail on their destiny.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 8 points 9 months ago

It's important to note that Dune was published in 1965, Star Wars premiered in 1977, and The Hero With a Thousand Faces was published in 1949 but the Hero's Journey took a while to become a well known concept.

Lucas has an interview where he talks about going to a lecture by Campbell on the Journey as part of his college studies, while Campbell was observing these common tropes have existed as long as storytelling the idea of this formula existing was still relatively new.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 10 points 9 months ago

Yes the common trope of a desert planet with a powerful worm-like guy that has a face and arms having spice orgies in a palace. That's just a common trope that exists... well just in Return of the Jedi and in God Emperor of Dune which was coincidentally published just around the time RotJ was being written.

And the old saw of someone having a vision of their lover dying during childbirth, trying to prevent it, getting an offer by an evil cloner dude to bring her back to life, and it ends up happening anyway, and surprise... it's twins! That kind of stuff is all over mythology, right?

Hey I love Star Wars too, but come on, Lucas burrowed very heavily from Dune.

[-] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Herbert admitted he ripped off Lawrence of Arabia so throwing stone in glass houses.

[-] okamiueru@lemmy.world 50 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Why did he think that? Also, why have no one mentioned Valérian and Laureline? It is much easier to argue was more than just a little inspiration?

The comic was published in 1967, ten years before star wars.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/07/30/are-the-valrian-and-laureline-comics-really-a-big-unnamed-influence-on-star-wars

I remember seeing more side by side comparison somewhere, and the list of passing coincidences was very long. I think it was this one

[-] leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 9 points 9 months ago
[-] okamiueru@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

Indeed you did! Apologies.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] ooli@lemmy.world 43 points 9 months ago

And I dont get why Avatar from Cameron was not sued.

in 1979 Herbert and Ranson wrote "The Jesus Incident ":

A planet named Pandora habited by violent various beasts

The human survive in a Colony and cant barrely go out, because of the wild life.

The whole planet is covered by an entity protecting the planet it is named: AVATA. who comunicate with blinking light.

There is a scene, where one of the main human run around the human camp folded by many monster.

To survive on the planet, the human created special Clone with better reflex.

The Clone were badly treated and rebelled against the Colony


And Arrival by Villeneuve (or the book it pretend to be from) Is bit for bit from the novella :"Try to remember" From Herbert.

Aliens try to communicate to humanity.

Some woman manage to do understand their language.

But some military try to smugle a bomb in the alien ship.

[-] 5ibelius9insterberg@feddit.de 20 points 9 months ago

The book it pretended to be from is the short story "Story of your life" by Ted Chiang which seems to be a bit different from "Try to remember":

  • Aliens arrive

  • Woman learns their language and it completely changes her perception of time which makes her tell her daughter her(the daughter's) whole life's story on the day of her birth (Hence the title)

  • Aliens leave at some point and nobody knows why

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Your_Life

[-] ooli@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

what make me think that "Try to remember " was used, is the "bomb attack".. it make no sense in the movie, and it also sound a bit dumb in Herbert novel. And of course, beside the time travel twist, every thing play the same

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 23 points 9 months ago

I don’t remember a Death Star or a princess to save in Dune. Or robots.

[-] niktemadur@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago

Those three elements were taken from Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. There weren't robots, but there were two characters who serve the same function, often as comic relief in the background, but also coming through in some heroic way when it counts.

[-] sylphrin@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago

I don't think it's a rip-off either, but the Dune franchise does actually involve some princesses and robots

[-] hitmyspot@aussie.zone 20 points 9 months ago

Yes, but not a damsel in distress. A trope that has a name from the other stories.

Star wars uses old tropes. Dune uses old tropes. The key is they both did it on ways that tell a story that lots of people found interesting or entertaining.

[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago

Which Dune book had robots? I thought that robots had been banned in the Dune universe.

[-] jdnewmil@lemmy.ca 5 points 9 months ago

Well, the Butlerian Jihad was a big influence obviously, and later in the series they end up fighting some leftover AIs from that era. But yeah, a very different take on robots between the two

[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Weren’t the Dune books mentioning these events published after Star Wars premiered?

[-] PilferJynx@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

Yeah, and wasn't even written by Frank.

[-] Nutteman@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

And also fucking suck. the story is bad and the writing is downright young adult dystopia novel in quality.

[-] Jakdracula@lemmy.world 21 points 9 months ago

It’s not, it’s a rip off of Lord of the Rings.

Also, Harry Potter is a rip off of Star Wars, which is a rip off of Lord of the Rings.

[-] leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 13 points 9 months ago

It’s not, it’s a rip off of Lord of the Rings.

Wasn't it a rip-off of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress..?

(And the ship designs from Christin & Mézières' Valérian: Spatio-Temporal Agent.)

[-] Jakdracula@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Lucas even says he copied lotr.

Lucas has often cited The Lord of the Rings as a major influence on Star Wars.

[-] Soggy@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

Ths Lord of the Rings is a major influence on damn near every piece of fantasy written since it was published.

[-] Jakdracula@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

Especially with Star Wars _

[-] wjrii@kbin.social 19 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)
  • Galaxy spanning empire with unseen emperor.
  • Spice as a valuable commodity
  • Desert planet to include skeleton of wormlike creature and suited inhabitants
  • Secretive sect of religious warriors with magical powers
  • Chosen one narrative with a dead dad

Now that said, almost every one of these is sort of set dressing and skin deep, and changed drastically in some fundamental way. Lucas was also not exploring remotely the same thematic ground as Herbert. He owes some of the world building to ideas lifted from Dune, without a doubt, but also to Lensman and Flash Gordon and John Carter of Mars. He owes plot and structure to Kurosawa ad Sergio Leone, and themes to Joseph Campbell and three thousand years of adventure tales, fairy tales, and coming of age stories. the only thing "original" about Star Wars is the integration of so many disparate influences into a coherent whole. You could argue that Dune was exploring more sophisticated themes and had a more actionable morality, but Herbert was flattering himself that Star Wars was a "ripoff." The influences were obvious, but they were just one hopper of grist for the Lucas mill.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] frezik@midwest.social 18 points 9 months ago

sigh. Artistic works are often derivative. Even the music of Star Wars takes after Holst's Planets, but it's far from a copy.

The themes of the two go completely different directions. Star Wars is a fairly simple story of good and evil, while Dune dives deeper into politics and personality cults.

Hell, I'll even defend Cameron's Avatar from accusations of being derivative. You might find a list showing how it's exactly like ten other works of fiction. So, why aren't we citing those ten works as being derivative of each other? Yeah, the movie isn't that good beyond spectacle, but even spectacle adds something that those previous works did not have.

[-] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 6 points 9 months ago

to be fair, the main problem with avatar being a retelling of pocahontas isn't the stealing aspect, but the fact they brought nothing to the table. It just felt stale.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] ooli@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

Probably because when you see a Cameron make billions out of his name and advertising for a story he ripped off, it is hard to cast aside all the influence he used that didnt get the same money/recognition

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 17 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Because it had a desert planet with a giant worm for like 10 minutes?

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] angrystego@lemmy.world 15 points 9 months ago

Storytelling is reimagining the basic archetypal stories over and over again for centuries. It's important to make the stories relevant and new for every generation. There's no point in arguing who came with a motive first.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 15 points 9 months ago

Star wars was always just a world war II movie rip off.

[-] darkpanda@lemmy.ca 17 points 9 months ago

To be fair World War II was kind of a World War I rip off.

[-] Pons_Aelius@kbin.social 5 points 9 months ago

The battle scenes are a direct ww2 rip off. (Ships in space having dog fights and flying like planes in atmosphere.)

The story takes many elements from Dune.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[-] jtk@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 9 months ago

My son was really into Star Wars when he was a kid but was over it by the time I dragged him to see Dune. On the ride home all he had to say was that it just seemed like a big Star Wars rip off :)

[-] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

Maybe... But at least Star Wars isn't giving the catholic church a blowie.

[-] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

If that's your interpretation, he didn't do a good job of writing.

"He felt that religion was forced down his throat, and his world of Dune was one of the ways he dealt with his childhood."

[-] PappyWappy@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

Some other parallels I haven't seen mentioned could be the revelation that the Baron is Jessica's biological father, Chani dying while giving birth to twins, Alia being Paul's secret sister.

Star Wars being a rip-off is a bit harsh and undeserved but I'd definitely say there was influence from Dune.

[-] VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

Luke and Leia being siblings only happened because Lucas scrapped his sequel trilogy idea after Empire and wanted to resolve that plot in Jedi. Them being twins only happened by narrative necessity when writing RotS.

[-] scytale@lemm.ee 7 points 9 months ago

I haven’t gotten to Heretics yet, but that line referencing 3PO is funny.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] livus@kbin.social 7 points 9 months ago

I feel bad for him. That's silly.

[-] newtraditionalists@kbin.social 5 points 9 months ago

He was also a terrible sack of shit. I don't give a fuck what he thought.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

As if Herbert didn't rip off half his ideas from Heinlein.

load more comments (10 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 17 Feb 2024
217 points (93.9% liked)

Movies

7494 readers
51 users here now

Lemmy

Welcome to Movies, a community for discussing movies, film news, box office, and more! We want this to be a place for members to feel safe to discuss and share everything they love about movies and movie related things. Please feel free to take part and help our community grow!


Related Communities:

!books@lemmy.world - Discussing books and book-related things.

!comicbooks@lemmy.world - A place to discuss comic books of all types.

!marvelstudios@lemmy.world - LW's home for all things MCU.


While posting and commenting in this community, you must abide by the Lemmy.World Terms of Service: https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/

  1. Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, ableist, or advocating violence will be removed.

  2. Be civil: disagreements happen, but that doesn’t provide the right to personally insult others.

  3. Spam, self promotion, trolling, and bots are not allowed

  4. Shitposts and memes are allowed until they prove to be a problem.

    Regarding spoilers; Please put "(Spoilers)" in the title of your post if you anticipate spoilers, as we do not currently have a spoiler tag available. If your post contains an image that could be considered a spoiler, please mark the thread as NSFW so the image gets blurred. As far as how long to wait until the post is no longer a spoiler, please just use your best judgement. Everyone has a different idea on this, so we don't want to make any hard limits.

    Please use spoiler tags whenever commenting a spoiler in a non-spoiler thread. Most of the Lemmy clients don't support this but we want to get into the habit as clients will be supporting in the future.

Failure to follow these guidelines will result in your post/comment being removed and/or more severe actions. All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users. We ask that the users report any comment or post that violates the rules, and to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS