Sure I'm going to go to the third party. I recommend you all do the same unless you're in a swing state. Dr. West and Claudia de La Cruz are actual good candidates.
Curious are you in agreement with West that NATO and the west are to blame for Russia's Invasion of Ukraine? He opposes funding for Ukraine and wants to end the conflict giving Putin parts of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Curious if you are in agreement with Biden's support for genocide?
Biden supports Ukraine defending itself from the genocide Russia is committing in Ukraine.
Crazy how you couldn't answer that with a no. Maybe think about that a little my dude ✌️😎
But Biden doesn't support genocide so there is nothing for me to say no to. West has never mentioned the genocide of Ukrainians. That is ok with you?
Biden supports Israel's genocide of Palestinians. Which you're ok with apparently.
So we both support genocidal maniacs. Cool
No, not really see. Biden is actively supporting the Israeli side of the Palestinian genocide. Dr. West is not funneling arms or money to Russia. So your original point actually works against you.
I think you should pay more attention to politics.
West supports blocking aid to Ukraine and is complicit in Putin's invasion. Why hold Biden to such a high standard yet give West a free pass?
Do you really not understand the difference between actively supplying arms to and supporting a nation that is committing a genocide and just not supporting a country that's being invaded?
Those are two wildly different things and if you really think they're equivalent then this conversation is not productive.
Biden has an initiative to build a temporary pier in the Gaza to facilitate aid deliveries by sea. Biden has called for a cease fire in Gaza which has pissed off Israel.
West is against all aid to Ukraine. He has never mentioned support of any kind for Ukraine and has been almost entirely silent with any criticism of Putin. He is a monster.
What about West ignoring Ukrainians and any aid at all? Does he get a free pass?
No
I don't understand how you think not stopping a genocide is the same as aiding or committing a genocide.
If you really think those two things are the same dude, you got to look hard in the mirror.
It's not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don't agree with him on everything I know that he won't turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Edit: I change my mind. After seeing Bidens debate performance it is pretty obvious that he is going to lose. Unless if the Democrats replace Biden with a candidate who can actually speak. I will be voting for Jill Stein instead.
Edit 2: Turns out Biden dropped out. I will now vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but after this election I will be voting 3rd party from now on.
Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I'm going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won't do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: "But that's not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I'm voting 3rd party 😤"
Oh wow, Biden didn't actively help the genociders one time!!!! Wow! That's certainly means that he has an actively been helping them this entire time. Dude grow up.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it's the other that's a bad guy.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
And everyone who votes for Biden agrees with you. We all also understand that now is not the fucking time
It never is the "fucking time"!
This is why every election cycle as the Republicans get ever more repugnant, the Democrats follow them since all they need to be is a tiny bit less bad - or at least that's what they believe and all the Stockholm Syndrom victims preaching "we have no other choice" keep on confirming their belief every 4 years.
That's how you ended up with a choice between two genocide supporters - because it has never been the "fucking time" for the last 3 decades so the Democracts felt confident to not give a rats arse about their electorate, only big donors and those who give gold-plated non-executive board memberships and million-dollar fees in the speech circuit to "friendly" politicians.
MLK addressed 'a convenient time' in a Letter from a Birmingham Jail. James Baldwin asked in 1989 how much time do they want for their progress.
Its never the right time, which keeps the duopoly in power and the working class subjugated.
Fine, let's run with this analogy:
This is like watching a bunch of people with Stockholm Syndrom trying to convince each other than one of the people keeping them imprisioned is a good guy and it’s the other that’s a bad guy.
We're all in prison, both dudes will keep us there. One dude wants to murder your gay cell mate and give smaller cells to Hispanic prisoners. Voting, not voting, neither will win you your freedom. Your vote might make your friend's life easier.
There is no solution to the problems of the US via the traditional political parties, only via civil society movements and even those given the almost-dictatorship-level of civil society surveillance in the US, are under surveillance and are often subverted.
Which political party is restricting the speech of LGBTQ+ people right now? Which party wants to put them all on a list? Which party is visibly anti-labor instead of just pretending not to be?
If you want change, fight for it. If Trump wins you activate hard mode.
I refuse to have Biden elected again just so he can sit in his office and say, "can you believe it? We supported a genocide and killed 30 thousand and people still voted for me!" I know the other option is trump the terrible but at least your strategically setting a precedence that this type of behavior is unacceptable and will send a signal to future presidents.
I'm childish enough that I'm irritated at my comment here being removed. Here's the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg's party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there's an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller's quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn't getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn't left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn't left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don't like. It is a reason I don't bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they'd use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there's a certain pick-me viewpoint like "obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they'd leave me alone," but I don't think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by "not endorsing" a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It's all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that's not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It's tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - "If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!" But as North Korea shows, there's not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don't feel 'left' enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don't want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im "somehwhere" (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as "we" (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we're putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
I did not build or consent to this governmental arrangement, and would have been excluded from voting during its formation. I am willing to take a project other people build as my own if I believe it is well intentioned. A well intentioned representative democracy minimally allows me to vote FOR someone who I think is a good person and will make good decisions on behalf of me and mine. Minimally, I refuse to be bullied into putting my own principles on the line by endorsing anyone who I believe will mistreat any sector of the world population. The vast majority of policy does not follow voter preferences anyway.
There’s a lot of nuance and discussion that is just ignored by online people regarding this discussion. I’m sick of the fighting.
Change your horrible voting system. FPTP is the root of all this craziness
Agreed. We're getting some traction on this but it is absolutely not possible for this year's presidential election. This is a long-term goal that should not affect your voting this year.
And next election you will say THE EXACT SAME THING. It'll never be the "right time" unless it's all already falling in your lap. Democrats suck because they completely lack initiative. They think that unless they control the House, Senate AND Presidential office that "it's impossible to get anything done!".
Nah, those high up are perfectly happy with this and you're just feeding into it.
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