This is a very valid point that I don't care about Yoshi "Black People can't exist in FFXVI"-P bringing up lol
Oof. Thanks for mentioning this.
Yuck, I just looked up his statements about that. Yeah, I don’t know if I will be playing FFXVI. There are plenty of games that don’t have that problem. Diablo 4 is a good example.
I hear what they're saying, but I've just never heard of anyone trying to dismiss a game for being a JRPG. Sure, they have their style and tropes, and they aren't for everyone, but I've yet to meet anyone who seriously claims that a particular game is bad because it is a JRPG, as opposed to a game simply being a bad JRPG.
It seems to me that between Sony, Nintendo, From Soft, Bandai Namco, Square Enix, and even, yes, Konami, Japanese gaming culture has had a huge influence on so-called Western gaming culture.
I noticed this in the 90s and 2000s. The Japanese perception of Western tastes was massively different than actual Western tastes. There were a lot of games that never made it here because they thought we would not like it and it later turned out to be a hit.
To be fair it wasnt just japanese. I know at least in the US there were American branches of these companies that handled the localization and advertising of their games. So it was the american hands of these companies that replaced anime fantasy art with more generic 80s fantasy book cover art, as well as the saga that was american mega man(though I still dig mega man 2's art even if it makes no sense).
~I’ve just never heard of anyone trying to dismiss a game for being a JRPG~
And I remember the 2000s where that was common among gamer culture. So what now?
A duel to the death, obviously
I don't think his position is reasonable. JRPG does describe an RPG subgenre, just like CRPG or ARPG do. They have specific formats, structures and tropes that they all adhere to religiously.
He also omits the fact that not all RPGs coming out of Japan are called that. Once they stray enough from the trope of the genres, they are no longer included in it. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
Finally, acting as if people have a racist or discriminatory slight against those games because of the term... I don't think I've ever seen people do that, other than disliking the general style and anime aesthetic which is entirely fair?
I don't get him.
Also not all JRPGs are developed in Japan, and not all RPGs developed in Japan are JRPGs.
It just happened that the subgenre started out in Japan.
I dunno I find the JRPG tag akin to the anime tag. If you get down to it anime as a category covers a wide range of genres, art styles, animation styles , and so on. That said there is a DNA throughout that does unite a lot of anime. Series and creators are inspired by other older anime and manga and games and even the non japanese pop culture that influences the creators is filtered by the impact that thing had in Japan.
As a category JRPG used to refer to a very specific story heavy game with turn based combat and usually random battles and leveling up that originates in japan. There are many modern games that have evolved beyond that old school system and look, but the DNA is still there. FFXV despite being open world, having action based combat, and realistic graphics still feels more like a classic final fantasy than it does like Fallout or elders scroll.
I also feel like that there's a bit of revisionism towards bias against JRPGs. I was chronically online in the 00s on gaming message boards and RPGs were held up as a gold standard among a lot of gamers and I bet even today you'd find quite a few "BEST GAME EVER" lists that would put FFVII and VIII and chrono trigger up there as some of the best of all time.
In the console space at least in the US the default RPG was JRPG for the longest time. There were some western RPGs on consoles but they were few and far between and not nearly as popular. It wasnt until the xbox into the 360 and ps3 gen that C-RPG devs started releasing on consoles. After years of being low sellers on PC this subgenre hit the mainstream and felt like a breath of fresh air especially with this not being the best year for many landmark JRPGs like Final Fantasy.
It is at THIS point in the late 00s into the early to mid 10s that things start getting toxic because gamers are gamers and have abrasive and bad communication skills. I feel like even then these kinds of dickheads werent in a majority and sales of big name Japanese RPGs along side the slow trickle of formerly japan only RPGs like Dragon Quest show that the demand and success is still there. At most there was a brief dip as many Japanese "style" games in general fell out of fashion with western gamers as western devs started getting more and more of the console pie.
I dunno it feels more like there was a blip in sales and the dev is trying to rationalize it as racism based on toxic gamer culture. Which is a fair assumption to make towards gamers but they still sell millions.
I mean, it's not the rest of the world's fault that Japan produced enough Final Fantasy clones to create a whole genre. But I guess we can try to call them something else. FFRPG? Linear RPG? Grindy-RPG? Not-Really-RP-RPG? Semi-Open-World Turn-Based Narrative? What would be preferable?
Lol, yeah this is such a bizarre take. Like, no one calls Elden Ring a JRPG even though it's made in Japan. JRPG is a genre, full stop.
The WRPG is also a thing. There is a very clear difference in how developers in the West versus the East approached the adaptation of the TRPG to the video game format, which is what all RPG's are rooted in. Square/Enix/Falcom and others used prebuilt parties and turn based combat, with a heavy emphasis on story, while western developers put way more control into players hands with character creation and role play (and often real time rolls/gameplay), with less developed stories and side characters. No approach is the "correct" one.
What would be really interesting to hear reported on is whether this was rooted in player preference. Like, did Japanese TRPG players gravitate more toward prebuilt campaigns and characters? Did Western players indulge in more varied self expression and try to break the game while disregarding the story the DM was trying to tell? Tbf, the former sounds much nicer to DM.
"they deserve to be othered as a country of developers because of square enix"?
I didn't say that. Which of the alternative names would you prefer to describe a thousand clones of the same game?
I’m more offended they’re even called RPGs when you have no real freedom of choice.
While I totally understand this devs point, it's kinda hard to separate this genre from the name at this point. I'd happily ditch JPRG in a heartbeat but it doesn't have a good alternative. Turn based doesn't describe all games that fit in that genre and can be mixed up with card games and such. Calling it a FF or Pokémon clone would be worse imo.
Typically I tend to just skip genres in general for all media. It's really all fluff and I find the best media tend to blur the line between so many genres that you can't describe it easily.
The article presents a lot of evidence for this othering, but I still think back to my own aversion to the genre at the time. To this day, I still don't play a ton of JRPGs, but I played Chrono Trigger back in the day, and I'm finding some fun in the old-school FF7 for the first time lately. If I were to attribute reasons to the general distaste for JRPGs in the 6th gen, it would be a couple of different things:
And while I'm sure that 20 years ago we absolutely had trouble in the west accepting Japan's fashion and gender norms, charitably, the best I can say from my own recollection is that those protagonists were frequently just very unrelatable and/or uninteresting. You can call it something like an obsession with masculinity, but people think Dante is cool and want to be him, which makes it fun to live out that fantasy of virtually being cool like Dante, but no one really wants to be Tidus.
I find it interesting that this article doesn't mention any of the Soulsborne games/Elden Ring/Sekiro, despite them ostensibly all being Japanese RPGs.
It's because they are not. An Rpg is not a jrpg just because it's made in Japan. JRPG refers to a very specific type of game, turn based largely linear. Final fantasy, Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, Octopath Traveler, etc etc. That's what most people think when you say JRPG and if so they would be right to say that they like or dislike the genre. This is a non issue as usual.
I'm not sure how you classify a western RPG versus a JRPG, but the thing that stands out in my mind is that those games are full of elements that commonly define each of them, and that makes sense, given the lineage of each branch of "RPG". Western RPGs stick closer to tabletop stuff, as that's what developed in the PC scene. JRPGs started out that way, but whisper-down-the-lane and iteration on what they'd already made tended to make different characteristics more prominent. So Miyazaki was likely more familiar with JRPGs, but he's also said that he was inspired by the difficulty in understanding English D&D, which is why Souls games feel so much like both western RPGs and JRPGs.
I'm not sure I agree, to me the difference between JRPG and RPG is like the difference between anime and animation. In a western audience, the label has been coopted by games closer to home with tropes we're more familiar with. That doesn't make the labeling of Japanese media othering in that sense, so much as it allows us to understand what contexts it is both from and for.
I can see how, to some people, it might be a turn-off (just see all the people that turn their nose up at anime conceptually even if they'd like it) -- see the people that may have seen edge of tomorrow in theaters and enjoyed it, but would likely sneer at being told to read all you need is kill, differences in media notwithstanding. But as the media landscape changes and grows it's useful to have different ways to sort of illustrate the differences in audience as well as the differences in creative context.
Mid-2000's gamer culture really was the worst.
I am sad to hear that the term "JRPG" has been tarnished by the hypermasculinity of that time. PS2 era JRPGs were an absolute heyday and one of my favorite periods in gaming (possibly mostly due to nostalgia goggles, but still).
It's a way to communicate what you expect from a game not some conspiracy to brand all Japanese RPGs lol. Like saying a game is a soulslike or roguelike. I mean Elden Ring is sort of an RPG and never heard anyone call it a JRPG. For JRPG I expect, anime art style, party system, turn based combat, probably a lot of drama lol.
That's definitely something to consider. In my head 'JRPG' was used in the same vein as 'manga' and 'anime', where it's used to group games that share a ton of stylistic choices. Stuff like being particularly plot-heavy, some sort of level progression system that leads to a grind, lots of secrets, intricate combat mechanics.
Didn't realise there was baggage behind the term for some of the devs. I'm thinking the term 'JRPG' doesn't mean what I think it means - perhaps for a lot of people it just lumps together all RPGs from Japan.
Hard for me to say. And to be honest, it's been a long time since I exclusively thought about RPGs as a 'RPG' vs 'JRPG' kind of deal so the term actually hasn't popped onto my radar unless I'm talking about squeenix/monolith/etc. games.
There was a time JRPG meant anime characters and clicking through lots of text to get through the story. Also, the “role playing” portion of the story usually went around characters that were hard wired into the game with no customization beyond their name. That’s changing for a lot of games, but the classic JRPG still survives. Maybe the classic kind of JRPG just needs a new name to avoid “othering”.
The "J" isn't othering any more than any other genre modifier. It sets up my expectations for what type of RPG it is, just like a "C" does. It also doesn't mean that the game comes from Japan, because Sea of Stars looks to be a JRPG, and Anachronox already was back in the day; it just means it's the Japanese style, which is neither inherently good or inherently bad.
Seems kinda whiny. I've never heard jrpg used in a bad way.
I'd like to see a poll or something to hear if most japanese devs feel this way. I bet it's just a vocal whiny minority.
I love jrpgs, chrono trigger is one of the best games ever made, and I've put a big chunk of my life into dragon quest games.
I’d like to see a poll or something to hear if most japanese devs feel this way. I bet it’s just a vocal whiny minority.
i mean, beyond the fact that you're calling a very established Japanese developer a "vocal whiny minority"... the article literally touches on how opinions aren't homogeneous (because obviously they won't be), and provides a link to how the Xenoblade Chronicles X developers feel about the term. here are their thoughts, for context:
RPGs are the only genre I can think of where there is a designation between the country of origin. Why do you think that's unique to RPGs?
Takahashi: You may not be aware of this, but I think a lot of the time when people use JRPG in the Japanese market, they actually do have negative feelings that are building up behind that. Unless the rest of the world shares those negative connotations, then that's not something I would worry about at all.
Yokota: Certainly, it often designated to people that they might see a similar presentation style that they see in anime or manga.
Takahashi: I like to think about the fact that even in the US market, you guys say "comics," but you also say "manga." The two words designate the country of origin, or the style, if it's the case of someone emulating that. It's the same in Japan where we say manga, but we also say american comics. I feel like this kind of usage is similar to what we're seeing with "JRPG" being used a term outside of Japan.
it just also thinks the balance of evidence supports its claim, even if some Japanese developers embrace it or are ambivalent to it: that the term is primarily used to other the genre. you can take or leave that claim—it's not wrong to not agree with it—but this specific point is something that makes me assume you didn't read the article, just the title or maybe a paragraph.
You're calling Yoshi-P, a very famous and influential Japanese game industry vet, "whiny." Surely he's earned enough respect for us to listen to his thoughts on what he considers derogatory!
Honestly feels like a bit of a gross misuse of the word "othering" given what material horrors are associated with the process. Especially bitter coming from Mr Naoki "economics justifies transphobia" Yoshida.
I feel like there's an important point in the valence of the word shifting as the American games industry and its colluders in the gaming press started trying to cut foreign and indie developers out. I think I completely missed out on the process of the word becoming pejorative, because I was mostly playing Nintendo and retro games during that era and not really talking about them online outside of people that also liked those kinds of games.
I do think it's interesting and sad though that negative valence can be attached to an entire region, and specifically a region outside "the West". "Slavjank" would be another example; meanwhile the endless litany of very poor quality games coming out of the UK in the 80's and 90's was never given a simple and catchy term...
But that leads to a point that there's also something to be said that valence can be contextual. "Jank" means different things to different people and can be meant appreciatively or pejoratively.
Within my friends with the same background and from the same (console) generation as me, and who like the same kinds of game as me, there is definitely a subgenre of RPG with a high degree of mechanical depth and novelty, typically made in Japan, that we crave more of; so some kind of catchy subgenre term is useful.
Half serious but I think the real solution is to start describing mechanically over-streamlined Hollywood wannabes as WRPGs.
I respectfully disagree with Yoshida. I never considered JRPG a “discriminatory” or “othering” term. JRPGs have their own style that’s distinct enough to warrant identifying, like the industry distinguishes between “first person shooters” and “third person shooters”. To a non-gamer, the difference may seem trivial, but to people who actually play the game, it’s huge.
That being said, I’m surprised that someone so closely involved with gaming would make such a statement. If anything, it sounds unnecessarily defensive.
This is interesting because I can see where he's coming from, but like others I see it as more of a distinct genre from Western RPG. There is no general RPG genre which a game can be categorized as to represent "the norm" which jrpgs are aberrant from. That being said, labelling western rpgs and jrpgs doesn't indicate the design philosophy which is actually indicated by those terms. The west has produced many jrpgs and Japan has produced many western rpgs, and that doesn't make sense unless you know what those terms actually mean.
I wonder what these genres could be called which would be better indicators? Dragon Quest-likes and Ultima-likes?
Dark Souls is a JRPG
https://neverendingrealm.com/opinion/the-new-debate-is-dark-souls-a-jrpg/
>calling zelda an action-rpg
>calling zelda a jrpg
this is worse than the "a hotdog is a sandwich" thing.
Really well-done article, thanks for posting.
Not really shocked to read the reaction in these comments.
People always get irate when someone points out that language they've been using for a long time is actually inherently problematic and perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid admitting it.
The question is: Are we asked to change it? The quotes hark back to Japanese first impression of the west using the term. They did not state that they want us to use a different term, Yoshi-P recalled his teams impressions of foreign reactions to their products from 20 years ago. The referenced Interview with the Xenoblade Devs also does not echo the Sentiment Yoshi-P put forth. As far as I can see all articles putting JRPG out as a discriminatory term are referencing the same single Interview.
I mean, I do understand that JRPG is somewhat problematic.
The problems it's not going to change because it's too deeply ingrained, and if you try to introduce another term it's just going to end up being either nobody understanding what you mean, or what is already happening where we try to briefly describe JRPGs as something else and people point to this other genre with that one mechanic that is still massively different from JRPGs.
Like we could just say "Dragon Quest-Clone", or "Final Fantasy-Clone", or "pokemon clone" but that'd be significantly more insulting to devs I feel, but really what people want are the kind of turn-based combat you'd see in Pokemon, Earthbound or Final Fantasy. But like the only way it's changing 30 years later is if you use a term that's much more "There's no way you don't know what this is" than JRPG.
From video gaming to card games and stuff in between, if it's gaming you can probably discuss it here!
Please Note: Gaming memes are permitted to be posted on Meme Mondays, but will otherwise be removed in an effort to allow other discussions to take place.
See also Gaming's sister community Tabletop Gaming.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.