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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by sapient_cogbag@infosec.pub to c/fediverse@lemmy.world

I strongly encourage instance admins to defederate from Facebook/Threads/Meta.

They aren't some new, bright-eyed group with no track record. They're a borderline Machiavellian megacorporation with a long and continuing history of extremely hostile actions:

  • Helping enhance genocides in countries
  • Openly and willingly taking part in political manipulation (see Cambridge Analytica)
  • Actively have campaigned against net neutrality and attempted to make "facebook" most of the internet for members of countries with weaker internet infra - directly contributing to their amplification of genocide (see the genocide link for info)
  • Using their users as non-consenting subjects to psychological experiments.
  • Absolutely ludicrous invasions of privacy - even if they aren't able to do this directly to the Fediverse, it illustrates their attitude.
  • Even now, they're on-record of attempting to get instance admins to do backdoor discussions and sign NDAs.

Yes, I know one of the Mastodon folks have said they're not worried. Frankly, I think they're being laughably naive >.<. Facebook/Meta - and Instagram's CEO - might say pretty words - but words are cheap and from a known-hostile entity like Meta/Facebook they are almost certainly just a manipulation strategy.

In my view, they should be discarded as entirely irrelevant, or viewed as deliberate lies, given their continued atrocious behaviour and open manipulation of vast swathes of the population.

Facebook have large amounts of experience on how to attack and astroturf social media communities - hell I would be very unsurprised if they are already doing it, but it's difficult to say without solid evidence ^.^

Why should we believe anything they say, ever? Why should we believe they aren't just trying to destroy a competitor before it gets going properly, or worse, turn it into yet another arm of their sprawling network of services, via Embrace, Extend, Extinguish - or perhaps Embrace, Extend, Consume would be a better term in this case?

When will we ever learn that openly-manipulative, openly-assimilationist corporations need to be shoved out before they can gain any foothold and subsume our network and relegate it to the annals of history?

I've seen plenty of arguments claiming that it's "anti-open-source" to defederate, or that it means we aren't "resilient", which is wrong ^.^:

  • Open source isn't about blindly trusting every organisation that participates in a network, especially not one which is known-hostile. Threads can start their own ActivityPub network if they really want or implement the protocol for themselves. It doesn't mean we lose the right to kick them out of most - or all - of our instances ^.^.
  • Defederation is part of how the fediverse is resilient. It is the immune system of the network against hostile actors (it can be used in other ways, too, of course). Facebook, I think, is a textbook example of a hostile actor, and has such an unimaginably bad record that anything they say should be treated as a form of manipulation.

Edit 1 - Some More Arguments

In this thread, I've seen some more arguments about Meta/FB federation:

  • Defederation doesn't stop them from receiving our public content:
    • This is true, but very incomplete. The content you post is public, but what Meta/Facebook is really after is having their users interact with content. Defederation prevents this.
  • Federation will attract more users:
    • Only if Threads makes it trivial to move/make accounts on other instances, and makes the fact it's a federation clear to the users, and doesn't end up hosting most communities by sheer mass or outright manipulation.
    • Given that Threads as a platform is not open source - you can't host your own "Threads Server" instance - and presumably their app only works with the Threads Server that they run - this is very unlikely. Unless they also make Threads a Mastodon/Calckey/KBin/etc. client.
    • Therefore, their app is probably intending to make itself their user's primary interaction method for the Fediverse, while also making sure that any attempt to migrate off is met with unfamiliar interfaces because no-one else can host a server that can interface with it.
    • Ergo, they want to strongly incentivize people to stay within their walled garden version of the Fediverse by ensuring the rest remains unfamiliar - breaking the momentum of the current movement towards it. ^.^
  • We just need to create "better" front ends:
    • This is a good long-term strategy, because of the cycle of enshittification.
    • Facebook/Meta has far more resources than us to improve the "slickness" of their clients at this time. Until the fediverse grows more, and while they aren't yet under immediate pressure to make their app profitable via enshittification and advertising, we won't manage >.<
    • This also assumes that Facebook/Meta won't engage in efforts to make this harder e.g. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish/Consume, or social manipulation attempts.
    • Therefore we should defederate and still keep working on making improvements. This strategy of "better clients" is only viable in combination with defederation.

PART 2 (post got too long!)

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[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago

I'm having trouble conceptualizing the attack strategies here. I also lack much understanding of what (exactly, precisely, at the technical level) federation is so I don't understand how defederation is a defense against those attacks.

Would someone help me break this down conceptually? Are there any analogies? Is this like closing the gate of a castle? Is it like quarantining infected people? Like blocking a phone number? Not loaning someone money?

Please don't just say "yes to all those analogies". I'm casting about for understanding here.

How can I better understand OP's argument here? (I have a background in tech and understand passwords, certificates, signatures, etc if that helps). Is email a federated thing? What's federation precisely?

[-] sapient_cogbag@infosec.pub 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Someone has explained the basic Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy below, but I also want to comment on my own "Embrace, Extend, Consume" idea, as well as the other issues that come with Facebook.

Embrace, Extend, Consume is like Embrace, Extend, Extinguish except the end goal isn't complete annihilation of the target. Instead of defederating at the endpoint, Meta/FB just dominates the entire standard, and anyone who steps out of line is forced into a miniscule network of others. They can then use this dominant position to buy out or consume large instances, or for example, force data collection features into the standard and aggressively defederate anyone else who doesn't comply >.<

In this way, they consume the network entirely, which doesn't necessarily destroy the communities but essentially borgifies them and renders people unable to leave.

The other component specific to facebook is their long and continued history of engaging in what essentially amounts to large-scale psychological manipulation and information warfare towards it's various goals (money, total domination of human communication, subsuming the internet in countries where the infrastructure is still too small to resist a single corporation restricting it's content, political manipulation, collection of ever more data, etc.).

They have well over a decade of experience in this, hundreds of times more users, and untold amounts of labour, research and other resources have been poured specifically into figuring out the most effective ways to manipulate social groups via techniques like astroturfing, algorithmic prioritization, and more sophisticated strategies I am not aware of. All backed by data from literally billions of human beings >.<

This means that exposing the Fediverse to Facebook/Meta is essentially exposing us all to one of the most organised and sophisticated information warfare machines that has ever been created. Cutting off the strings (as in the other analogy by @BreakingBad@lemmy.world) not only protects from direct EEE/EEC, but also makes it harder for Meta/Facebook to influence, dominate, and consume the conversation here, either by sheer user-mass, or by malicious information warfare (or even unintentional consequences of their algorithms), or by a combination of both.

For hypothetical examples on how this might work - in reality it might be different in specific, these are just illustrative:

  • Meta/FB could start a campaign (maybe astroturfed) for "user safety", where they encourage people to distrust users from smaller instances or any user with their instance address marker not on @threads.<whatever their url>
  • Meta/FB could add "secure messaging" (lol, it's facebook), but only between threads users. Then they could push the idea that ActivityPub is bad for privacy (the DMs are so just use Matrix ;p, but if you post stuff publicly, it makes sense that it's public).
  • Meta/FB could by simple user mass result in most communities being on Threads. People tend to drift towards more populous communities about the same topic, in general, and Threads unbalances the user ratios so much that everyone would just go to those >.< (as opposed to right now, where we have similar sized communities on several large instances, where most people subscribe to most of them)
  • Meta/FB could use social engineering to push for changes to the ActivityPub protocol that are harder for other ActivityPub servers to implement ^.^, or even ones that are hard for non-proprietary clients to implement.
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[-] cybirdman@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 year ago

I think one of the ways we could combat as well as defederating them from instances is provide such a good user experience to consume content on the fediverse that threads - or whatever else - becomes just a shittier, ad-ridden version of what we use.

Look at Reddit for example, if they didn't have the power to remove our access to APIs, third party apps would still provide the best experience. Can any of the features Reddit provides that third party apps don't justify the number of ads thrown in your face? Nope.

Same here, if we focus on improving the experience of a Lemmy or kbin user and ignore whatever meta is doing, nothing is stopping us from becoming just the better way of consuming all fediverse content. Then if threads were to drop federation, we would still have the upper hand.

The only thing that might hurt us in the end is if we start giving in and host communities on their instance. But if we don't, and keep our ground, we can have the best of both worlds. See their content without their ads, and keep control of our own content, without their rules.

[-] sapient_cogbag@infosec.pub 16 points 1 year ago

I think one of the ways we could combat as well as defederating them from instances is provide such a good user experience to consume content on the fediverse that threads - or whatever else - becomes just a shittier, ad-ridden version of what we use.

Look at Reddit for example, if they didn’t have the power to remove our access to APIs, third party apps would still provide the best experience. Can any of the features Reddit provides that third party apps don’t justify the number of ads thrown in your face? Nope.

I certainly am not against improving the UI, but at the current scale of the Fediverse we don't have anywhere near the resources to compete directly with Facebook/Meta. It's too early. The primary defense must be defederating.

Making our UI advancements in a way that a corporation cannot - for instance, exploiting their need for advertising to make sure we have better experiences - is a good strategy in the long term. But it is a secondary strategy to immediate defederation ^.^, because Facebook is only at the start of the enshittification process for Threads and hence they won't be pumping it full of ads and their engineers can focus on having a "better" experience in the short term until they destroy us.

Same here, if we focus on improving the experience of a Lemmy or kbin user and ignore whatever meta is doing, nothing is stopping us from becoming just the better way of consuming all fediverse content. Then if threads were to drop federation, we would still have the upper hand.

The only thing that might hurt us in the end is if we start giving in and host communities on their instance. But if we don’t, and keep our ground, we can have the best of both worlds. See their content without their ads, and keep control of our own content, without their rules.

You can't have the best of both worlds, unfortunately. By exposing Fedi users to Meta/Facebook content, we expose ourselves to a company that has a long and continuing history of social manipulation and is able to pressure us to host communities on Threads - even if it's only done by sheer mass of users.

By letting them in, we've already almost lost. Whether by direct EEE, or by simple user agglomeration onto primarily-Threads communities, or by a deliberate campaign by Meta/Facebook, they will eventually try and gain direct control of the network.

My opinion is that the only useful response to an organisation that is openly known for direct deception and manipulation and attempting to assimilate existing networks (like e.g. what happened to Instagram and Whatsapp and XMPP, and probably others I'm not specifically aware of) is outright rejection.

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[-] Joped@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

To be honest, federation is presently too complicated for a majority of users. Until that is solved, distributed social networks aren't going to really take off.

If you understand tech, you will get it. But lets face it, most people don't know wtf they are doing lol

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[-] SilentSeven@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

Thank you for this. While new to the fediverse, the activites of the large players ring true. I'll be watching.

[-] whereisdani_r@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

OP I completely agree with all of your points. ESPECIALLY (BIG BOLD LETTERS) we need to create better "front-ends" Anecdotally, I put a post a on mastodon that didn't get responses (the vibe there seems a bit different on this issue, because I usually do get responses) Since the reddit migration, I've gone into a homelab frenzy. I have reached out to others. I have been in awe at the developers who worked on the overloading of servers and the jump on the creation of third party apps. The pre-existing community that explained a complicated process to many people.

We saw how many uses came over from reddit and found it too complicated. We had those discussions too. How there were solutions like simplifying what the fediverse is, what instances are, etc. etc. This took time for people who already cared about what was happening on reddit_ which is a small minority of internet uses.

And that would have been okay, right? We had our space, we could have had time to build.

I have been going on about this issue ad nauseum with my partner. I have a computer science background and work in cyber tech so this came to me a bit faster, but still a learning curve. I showed her videos, articles, walked her through the apps. But this is someone who is a social media user.

I had a fever for a few days (very irritated as it disrupted my home lab fever, pardon that pun) when my partner is comes running in thrilled*___* that she gets to be involved with my project and finally understands it because she saw Threads and the word "fediverse"

This is someone who is yes intelligent, who lives with someone who is way more involved with this issue that the average internet "normie", and still, because of the front end UI, the simplification of it. The exact quote was "this is a space on the fediverse for me"

A lot of fighting happened, lol anyways if you have made it this far, especially to OP:

  1. We need to organize. I do not think anything can get done with siloed passionate informed users like ourselves. How do we organize? This will take crowd funding. Resources. Project roadmaps. Mission statements. Unfortunately, some of the ick of how we work together in a corp to roll to market.
  2. We need to move fast
  3. We need things pretty

How do we get this done?

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[-] icepuncher69@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

All i have to say afterr reading that is: HOLLY SHIT!!! I didnt even know a fucking city tryed to go opensource, let alone Munich, and fucking MicrosoftOffice of all the fucking things prevented them from doing so. Fuck. We absofuckinglutely must keep motherfucking Meta as far fucking away from our comunities. The fucking problem is gonna be when those meta fuckers start fucking offering money to the admins, keeping a server is fucking expensive and they are gona have to get money from somewhere. Fuck, whe really need a solution for this otherwise we are fucked.

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[-] sxan@midwest.social 13 points 1 year ago

Coincidentally, I just read an article about the impact large players can have on a financial market when they create a new ETF. The article went into some detail about the various ways the market can be manipulated, and also the unintentional influences the mere presence of a new, huge, monolithic owner of a large share of a commodity can have. It's rarely a positive event for the smaller players.

There are similarities between financial markets and social media spaces, and social media should take heed from the lessons offered by the much older financial space. Unlike financial markets, the ActivityPub sphere has controls small players can exercise to counter movements like Threads. How effective they are remains to be seen, but I think you're absolutely right: the existing AP players would be better served by locking out Meta, than to allow the wolf into the playground.

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[-] Raildrake@vlemmy.net 13 points 1 year ago

If the attention this post is getting isn't a strong indicator of what our communities want, and the direction that the fediverse and all instance admins should follow, then nothing will be.

Especially now, because of the extra obstacles of joinin the fediverse, users are on average more aware of the implications of such a thing. We should listen our people.

[-] Elgenzay@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
[-] chaosppe@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Wasn't there a post showing how bad defederation is as a defence when other instances were doing so? Why don't we just have a bot that removes comments from META and messages the user, that in order to comment they must use another instance? This way we can use METAs own tactics against them. Drive users to our instances, regulate communities automatically and still increase overall content generated rather than styfile.

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[-] zephyroths@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

I'm really out of touch here. So, Meta is joining the fediverse?

[-] sapient_cogbag@infosec.pub 11 points 1 year ago

Not if we work together and most of us defederate from them.

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[-] FormlessMartian@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Cannot agree harder

[-] dep@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

AI Summary:

This text is talking about why it is important to stop being part of the Facebook/Threads/Meta social media platforms. It says that these companies have done bad things like help with genocides and manipulate people's opinions. They have also invaded people's privacy and tried to control the internet. The text says that we shouldn't believe anything these companies say because they are not trustworthy. It also says that by leaving these platforms, we are protecting ourselves and our network. It is like our immune system fighting against harmful things. The text suggests that we should focus on making our own social media platforms better instead of relying on these big companies.

[-] guybrush@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

I would not sing up for Meta run instance, but it is because I don't really trust it will last. In a big corporate scheme of things, it is an experiment and can be killed anytime because it is really nobodys passion project to maintain. So I really doubt a Meta run instance will be better than a multitude of community run instances in the long run.

But yeah, I'd sway for defederate. Meta is a corporation and it's intentions are what they are. It's not "fair" but also its not like Meta is comparable to another community in the fediverse.

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this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
3588 points (96.2% liked)

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