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Asking gemini if google is a monopoly (feddit.uk)

submitted 2 months ago by Vitaly@feddit.uk to c/technology@lemmy.world

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cross-posted from: https://feddit.uk/post/16950456

For those who don't know google gemini is an AI created by google

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[-] ilega_dh@feddit.nl 67 points 2 months ago

This doesn’t mean anything. It’s an LLM and it will only give you a valid sounding answer regardless of the truth. “Yes” sounds valid and is probably the one with the most occurrences in the training data.

Stop posting shit like this.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 29 points 2 months ago

90% of the market sounds like "yes" to me too.

[-] MimicJar@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Being a monopoly and engaging in negative monopolistic behaviors are also different things.

For example if the only two burger joints in the world were McDonalds and Burger King, and Burger King decided to replace their burgers with literal shit, actual human and animal feces, would McDonalds be a (I hope and assume) monopoly? Probably. Are they engaging in negative monopolistic behavior? Not necessarily.

Obviously, as a quick aside, fuck Google for their shitty software decisions, their cancelling of great products and their enshittification of a majority of their applications.

However simply having 90% of the market does not technically mean they have done anything wrong. You can't say they have 90% of the market therefore they have done something illegal or have abused being a monopoly.

You have to be specific. You have to call out payment to companies to be the default. But even that isn't quite enough because companies sold access. Can a company be at fault for buying access as the default? It was for sale. It's a weak argument, or at least an incomplete one. You need to prove they abused their position. Or you need to make a case that the industry they are in requires additional regulation as a whole.

I say this because although it sounds like I'm defending Google I'm not. There is a difference between something feeling illegal and something being illegal. Technically, although a recent judgement would disagree with me, they haven't done anything wrong. It feels like they have. I agree it feels like they have. But they haven't (or there are further pending results which will prove otherwise).

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

Ok. But you usually don't get to 90% market share without doing something "wrong".

[-] MimicJar@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

Yes but PROVE IT. Define what wrong they did. That's my point.

Take a look at the recent monopoly trial, https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/05/technology/google-antitrust-ruling.html

They claim that spending $18 billion per year to be the default search engine makes them monopolistic. That's it? That's all they got?

So the result will be Google stops paying $18 billion and device/browser manufacturers have to put up a Browser Choice dot EU type option.

Go back 10 years and put that law in place. AFAIK Apple has always defaulted to Google. Samsung probably would have sold out to Bing to be the default (although in this case Bing wouldn't reach a monopoly, so I guess that's ok for some reason).

I'm not saying paying to be the default didn't help, but is that the reason they have 90% of the searches? No.

Did they do some else? Maybe. Someone should prove it and we can have an actual change.

[+] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee -27 points 2 months ago

Information can't be dismissed simply by stating it was written by an LLM. It's still ad hominem.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 30 points 2 months ago

What? No, the fact that it's an LLM is pivotal to the reliability of the information. In fact, this isn't even information per se, just the most likely responses to this question synthesized into one response. I don't think you've fully internalized how LLMs work.

[+] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee -15 points 2 months ago

I disagree. Information can be factual independent of who or what said it. If it's false, then point to the errors in it, not to the source.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago

You're correct, but why are you trusting the output by default? Why ask us to debunk something that is well-known to be easy to lead to the answer you want, and that doesn't factually understand what it's saying?

[+] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee -13 points 2 months ago

But I'm not trusting it by default and I'm not asking you to debunk anything. I'm simply stating that ad hominem is not a valid counter-argument even in the case of LLMs.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

You're saying ad hominem isn't valid as a counterargument, which means you think there's an argument in the first place. But it's not a counterargument at all, because the LLM's claim is not an argument.

ETA: And it wouldn't be ad hominem anyways, since the claim about the reliability of the entity making an argument isn't unrelated to what's being discussed. Ad hominem only applies when the insult isn't valid and related to the argument.

[+] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee -6 points 2 months ago

Dismissing something AI has 'said' not because of the content, but because it came from LLM is a choice any individual is free to make. However, that doesn’t serve as evidence against the validity of the content itself. To me, all the mental gymnastics about AI outputs being just meaningless nonsense or mere copying of others is a cop-out answer.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Ok, but if you aren't assuming it's valid, there doesn't need to be evidence of invalidity. If you're demanding evidence of invalidity, you're claiming it's valid in the first place, which you said you aren't doing. In short: there is no need to disprove something which was not proved in the first place. It was claimed without any evidence besides the LLM's output, so it can be dismissed without any evidence. (For the record, I do think Google engages in monopolistic practices; I just disagree that the LLM's claim that this is true, is a valid argument).

To me, all the mental gymnastics about AI outputs being just meaningless nonsense or mere copying of others is a cop-out answer.

How much do you know about how LLMs work? Their outputs aren't nonsense or copying others directly; what they do is emulate the pattern of how we speak. This also results in them emulating the arguments that we make, and the opinions that we hold, etc., because we those are a part of what we say. But they aren't reasoning. They don't know they're making an argument, and they frequently "make mistakes" in doing so. They will easily say something like... I don't know, A=B, B=C, and D=E, so A=E, without realizing they've missed the critical step of C=D. It's not a cop-out to say they're unreliable; it's reality.

[-] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

I get the concerns about the reliability of LLM generated content, and it's true that LLMs can produce errors because they don’t actually understand what they’re saying. But this isn’t an issue unique to LLMs. Humans also make mistakes, are biased, and get things wrong.

The main point I'm trying to make is that dismissing information just because it came from an LLM is still an ad hominem fallacy. It’s rejecting the content based on the source, not the merits of the argument itself. Whether the information comes from a human or an LLM, it should be judged on its content, not dismissed out of hand. The standard should be the same for any source: evaluate the validity of the information based on evidence and reasoning, not just where it came from.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

Ok, I get what you're saying, but I really don't know how to say this differently for the third time: that's not what ad hominem means

[-] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago

It's a form of ad hominem fallacy. That's atleast how I see it. I don't know a better way to describe it. I guess we'll just got to agree to disagree on that one.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago

Ad hominem is when you attack the entity making a claim using something that's not relevant to the claim itself. Pointing out that someone (general someone, not you) making a claim doesn't have the right credentials to likely know enough about the subject, or doesn't live in the area they're talking about, or is an LLM, aren't ad hominem, because those observations are relevant to the strength of their argument.

I think the fallacy you're looking for could best be described as an appeal to authority fallacy? But honestly I'm not entirely sure either. Anyways I think we covered everything... thanks for the debate :)

[-] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago

As a side note, I’d like to thank you for the polite, good-faith exchange. If more people adopted your conversational style, I’d definitely enjoy my time here a lot more.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

Ah, now I feel bad for getting a bit snippy there. You were polite and earnest as well. Thanks for the convo 🫡

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago

It is possible to create an infinite amount of bullshit at no cost. So by simply hurling waves and waves of bullshit at you, we can exhaust you.

Feel free to argue further, I'll be outsourcing my replies to ChatGPT.

[-] Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

Oh yea? Well, why doesn't Ross, the larger of the friends, simply eat the other friends?

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago

That’s a classic misinterpretation of the Friends universe. Ross, being the larger of the group, would never eat the others because his intellectual appetite is already satisfied by correcting their grammar and paleontology facts. Besides, cannibalism is frowned upon in a sitcom setting.

[-] Veedem@lemmy.world 33 points 2 months ago

Seems to be a decent answer considering the source.

[-] somethingsomethingidk@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

I just did the same thing with llama and got the same thing

[-] recapitated@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

That's a really long prompt just to have it roll a d2

[-] FatCat@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

On a side note the free gemini version (whichever model they use) is absolute poo poo compared to free Claude or even Chatgpt.

[+] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee -9 points 2 months ago

When you get a long and nuanced answer to a seemingly simple question you can be quite certain they know what they're talking about. If you prefer a short and simple answer it's better to ask someone who doesn't.

[-] mitrosus@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 2 months ago

Sometimes, it's just the opposite.

[-] Halcyon@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It's a LLM. It doesn't "know" what it's talking about. Gemini is designed to write long nuanced answers to 'every' question, unless prompted otherwise.

[-] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee -2 points 2 months ago

Not knowing what it's talking about is irrelevant if the answer is correct. Humans that knows what they're talking about are just as prone to mistakes as an LLM is. Some could argue that in much more numerous ways too. I don't see the way they work that different from each other as most other people here seem to.

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

— Albert Einstein

this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2024

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