When happy teams are an issue : programmer

[-] KellysNokia@lemmy.world 12 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 minutes ago)

All my homies hate agile, Jira, scrum, kanban, etc.

In truth none of these items are inherently wrong - what's wrong is leadership picking up new tools and adopting management structures expecting them to solve fundamental organizational issues.

Instead they only serve to magnify the outcomes of your existing corporate culture.

[-] Zementid@feddit.nl 5 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Idk man, better than a post it Kanban... which is where I came from.

If Jira is shit, it's not Jira, it's your Manager. It takes some effort to learn and use, but when it's set up and maintained, it helps a lot, especially for Virtual Teams.

Edit: But their Ai is shit. They gave it for free and now want to charge money for it. Nah bro, not for that retard.

[-] Zink@programming.dev 1 points 1 hour ago

Yeah, jira is going alright for us at work, but there are a lot of supporting people maintaining it and prioritizing things in meetings that we engineers don’t have to attend.

Everybody gangs up on hating Teams instead!

[-] Hupf@feddit.org 22 points 4 hours ago

Want issues?

Start with Jira

[-] GreenSofaBed@lemmy.zip 33 points 6 hours ago

I use Teams and Jira, and I can't even imagine the amount of wasted time when I click anything in either of them and nothing happens for a good while, just waiting around.

[-] KellysNokia@lemmy.world 8 points 2 hours ago

If you press F12 and look at the network calls you can see the insane amount of analytics they are sending for every twitch of the mouse

[-] CluckN@lemmy.world 12 points 5 hours ago

Don’t worry teamsters we added 6 new ticket statuses so they can get auto-sorted straight to the abyss.

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 10 points 6 hours ago

Jira is a masterpiece compared to the dumpster fire that is Teams.

[-] toddestan@lemm.ee 5 points 3 hours ago

Maybe the old, discontinued on-premise version. The cloud version of JIRA is a huge step back.

With that said, Teams is not a good product either.

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

Teams is the worst product Microsoft has released since IE.

[-] the_artic_one@programming.dev 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

There's still Jira Data Center but nobody wants to pay extra for it so instead we have to deal the the garbage that is Cloud.

[-] filcuk@lemmy.zip 6 points 5 hours ago

I beg to differ.

I've not had a real issue with teams since the early 'new teams' release. Nor have I had issues prior.

Using Jira is actually something I dread every day.
Knowing I have to go through the list of tasks and projects, where each click means another few seconds of staring blankly at the screen as it loads.

In an age where I'm used to every interaction having a near instant reaction, using Jira feels like peeling potatoes with a butter knife.

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 3 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Maybe you just don't have a reasonable comparison. We just switched from Slack and Zoom to Teams and it has significantly impacted our ability to collaborate and communicate. It's constantly dropping calls, video quality is awful, annotation is awful, the layout is wasteful with tons of wasted space, audio is terrible, there's no closed captioning visible while screen sharing, there are too many problems to list. It's the type of product I'd expect from a high school programming class, not a trillion dollar company.

[-] astropenguin5@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

As an outsider to a lot of such corporate things it sounds like they both suck a lot, just in different ways.

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

I never had any issues with Zoom or Slack. They do what they're supposed to do. Jira is fine too, but I'm not a PM, so I don't have to deal with anything other than the Kanban board.

Edit: I guess it's relevant that I'm on a MacBook Pro, and not a Windows machine.

[-] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 31 points 8 hours ago

I absolutely love how this implies that the team is happy before going to Jira.

so not only can Atlassian not write software, they can't develop a usable product, and they can't even market it without insinuating how shitty it is.

[-] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 6 points 6 hours ago

I read "happy ___ starts with ___" as stating that happiness was the eventual result of a process that started with ___.

[-] Skates@feddit.nl 2 points 4 hours ago

Yes, like most normal people do.

There's a lot of discussion when you're a software dev about the best way to do things, and a lot more is spent on this debate than on actually writing code. One could wonder if there is so much discussion because there are so many good ideas that it's difficult to choose the one that is optimal for the situation.

But then you read one of these posts on lemmy and you are reminded that someone with internet access and thumbs could spare the short time they have to take a shit to egregiously misunderstand a simple fucking slogan, smugly post about their shit take on the internet, and then return to their job where they will then spend hours misunderstanding the simplest of fucking concepts, slowing down everyone else along with them.

[-] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

Jira is great software if you ignore all the insufferable bugs in it that Atlassian ignores just to make their on-prem option so clunky you have no choice but to use their SAAS offering. I know, I know, "ThEy DrOpPeD sUpPoRt AlReAdY!"

ever had to rebuild a sprint because Jira failed to properly migrate the old cards over to the new one, but instead throws them all into the backlog randomly and now you have to hunt them down over the next hour?

how about when you're writing an update to a card and you're two paragraphs in with log examples and the UI decides to dump your entire content when you accidentally click outside the wysisyg?

But how can I forget the worst one! have you ever had your session timeout while you're writing a detailed bug report with screenshots, logs, and example data, and when you finally submit it you lose EVERYTHING because you need to login again and you can't go back?

I have, and you know what, I'll still use Jira because even the best trash can be better than the worst trash.

yeah, I'll take a fat dump on shitty products all day long because the negligence of Atlassian product development is abhorrent and deserves to be called out.

[-] toddestan@lemm.ee 2 points 2 hours ago

I've often wondered if Atlassian even uses the products they sell. There's just so many stupid bugs that I would assume no one at Atlassian would put up with if they had to eat their own dog food. Instead, those bugs don't seem to get fixed and seem to linger in their products forever.

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 hours ago

Here's my Jira experience. MS shop, have a programming department, but I'm not in programming and programming isn't our core product.

Need something that requires a Jira request. I use MS Edge because that's what IT recommends and it's not my computer. The only putative upside is that it knows who I'm logged in as. I click on the link for Jira, it asks me if I want to sign in with my account, which I assume is the MS one since it has the right email/user for it. It tells me that's the wrong one. Would I like to use my Atlassian account? Sure, let's use the same email. Whoops, you don't have an Atlassian account, but there's an MS account for your company. Do you want to use that, or something from the usual list of places that will log you in (Google, Facebook, MS)? Note that the MS option is only included in the list of third-party logins even though it knows my company has MS logins setup. So I click the MS option, and it may or may not ask for my password, because I'm already logged in via Edge, but it will certainly do my 2FA. And now I'm finally able to tell IT what is bothering me, and they wonder why people always seem frustrated.

So, now that I've gone through that once, I can save a single click by not choosing the Atlassian account option and go directly to signing in with a third party. I can only assume this is supposed to be the streamlined process.

[-] Skates@feddit.nl 3 points 4 hours ago

I mean, it just sounds like the people from your Tools/Infrastructure/IT/Devops/whatever-it's-called-for-you department are fucking incompetent and can't properly configure a Single Sign-On. Took mine a few years as well, I think the ticket was stuck in the queue behind the "restart some servers when nobody's watching to see how long until they find the issue" tickets, which they seemed to be working on weekly.

Also, I can't think of any reason why SSO can't work with Mozilla or Chrome also, not just with Edge.

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 hour ago

The problems with single sign-on and retained sign-on made it into The Boys. Most relatable scene in the show for me. I'm not saying my crew are geniuses, but this seems pretty endemic.

[-] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 18 points 9 hours ago

Where happy teams go to die.

[-] theyllneverfindmehere@lemmy.world 63 points 12 hours ago

For those complaining about Jira... I used to be one of you. After changing jobs and using several alternatives, I am begging to be back on Jira. Manage Engine is currently the bane of my existence.

[-] socsa@piefed.social 2 points 3 hours ago

The issue is more that all of these planning tools enable bad managers to implement bad management practices and workflows without any actual tracking for what constitutes bad management. Almost without fail, every manager I've worked with who is very attached to these products ends up using them for the sake of using them. And then when that produces shit results it's all about "engineering buy in" and "process learning curves" and they end up doing real damage to products before someone notices that Jira actions are not correlated with protective management.

The biggest issue is that good, effective management tools actually end up being a double edged sword because of how they shield bad managers the illusion of legitimacy.

[-] pageflight@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

Company started on Asana, individual teams jumped to Jira, company eventually followed. I was always accidentally creating blank tickets in Asana.

[-] Kushan@lemmy.world 7 points 8 hours ago

Honestly 95% of Jira complaints are because people have crap workflows configured. Out of the box Jira is pretty terrible but it's very customisable and you need to adjust it to suit your needs - and they have to be your needs and workflows.

That being said, there's that last 5% that Jira just gets in the way. If anyone has ever had multiple teams working on a single product, Jira is very prescribed about how you're supposed to structure that and If you don't, it's a pain.

[-] Mojave@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago

I can type out the entire 10 word long name of my sprint into the searchbar, and it Jira will pull up 22 pages of things that are not even CLOSE to what I searched. It's a nightmare to try and find my current sprint among the 65 other team's sprints every month.

[-] Kushan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

I find jiras search to be decent enough, you might get better results using a filter on sprint name with your current sprint in it.

[-] socsa@piefed.social 2 points 3 hours ago

Right, the entire issue is that it basically acts as a massive layer of insulation between reality and bad management. The whole thing is like a fucking paradox - any time you make a change to workflows or procedures there's this stupid period where you need to "wait for buy in" where it doesn't matter how outwardly idiotic the change is, you can't actually call it obviously fucking stupid for like several weeks, or you are seen as being contrarian, or causing trouble. And the real bullshit is that the "better" the tools are, the more this effect is amplified. So as an engineer, I have paradoxically come to appreciate bad management tools simply because when someone does something stupid with them, I can call it out more easily.

[-] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 18 points 8 hours ago

I'd suggest that 95% of Jira complaints are actually about corporate culture which is felt most keenly through asshole PMs trying to micromanage you through a ticketing system. It's mostly a fine piece of software - if you have a certified wizard to configure it it can be great... if you have a dummy it's going to be barely usable - but you can say the same thing about github issue tracking.

The unfortunate thing is that the teams most likely to use Jira are also the teams I most likely never want to work on.

[-] leisesprecher@feddit.org 29 points 12 hours ago

That might very well be the case, however, why are all of these apps so incredibly bad?

Jira especially seems like the definition of feature creep. It's more bloated than a lactose intolerant child after a tub of ice cream.

[-] JaxNakamura@programming.dev 19 points 11 hours ago

Because having more ticked boxes than the competition sells. Doesn't matter if it's of any relevance.

[-] GBU_28@lemm.ee 5 points 8 hours ago

That's the company's fault for using all the features

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[-] bappity@lemmy.world 114 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

yeah sure, happy teams start with jira but they end up as angry and sad teams

[-] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com 3 points 6 hours ago

Starting a new week on Monday, wondering how they f up tge experience on that web site this time....

[-] Carighan@lemmy.world 91 points 13 hours ago

Yeah, we were also once happy.

And then we started using Jira.

RIP

[-] ByteWelder@lemmy.ml 6 points 5 hours ago

At least you’re not using Azure Devops boards, Service Now or Basecamp. Those are all worse in my opinion. I miss Jira.

[-] arendjr@programming.dev 33 points 13 hours ago

Issue resolved

[-] thenextguy@lemmy.world 6 points 7 hours ago

No defect
Will not fix

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[-] Suppoze@beehaw.org 18 points 10 hours ago

Yeah, when you start Jira you're probably still a happy team

[-] YurkshireLad@lemmy.ca 8 points 10 hours ago

Not for long...

[-] breadsmasher@lemmy.world 53 points 14 hours ago

“Atlassian - for when you want make your security team really work”

[-] mattg@lemmy.sdf.org 38 points 14 hours ago

With Jira everything is an issue

[-] nroth@lemmy.world 7 points 10 hours ago

Just do a lightweigt process in a few docs and Excel, and meet in person often enough that you know what folks are doing. That's SOOOO much better and more natural for getting real work done. Great ideas die in JIRA among endless planning meetings and premature decomposition and estimates.

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