my biggest problem with haveno and bisq is starting from nothing (monero.town)

submitted 1 month ago by goatmeal@monero.town to c/monero@monero.town

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I am looking at haveno-reto and it has the exact same problem I had with bisq. in order to buy monero on haveno, you have to already have some monero, so you can do a security deposit. so haveno helps to reduce the number of times you have to interact with a CEX or KYC yourself, but it doesn't completely eliminate it. you may still have to do it at least once, like buying some litecoin on a CEX and changing it to some monero. I'd rather start clean with no KYC and it's very important to me.

what I am still trying to wrap my head around is, on localmonero and even localbitcoins it was possible for a person to buy coins without already having any. there were always some sellers who would let you send maybe a couple hundred bux even if you had no account history or anything, and there was never a deposit or collateral. they would still send you coins in return as long as they got the cash.

someone told me that bisq and haveno can't have this because then people will just initiate orders they have no desire to fulfill, as a form of spam attack that locks the seller's coins for a time, and that this is insurmountable without making the security deposit mandatory. but if localbitcoins and localmonero ran fine for years without this being a breaking problem, why isn't it possible on bisq and haveno? and why can't there be some other way to prevent spam like forcing the user to submit shares to a mining pool to prove that they are earnest? proof of work was invented to prevent spam.

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[-] jay_edwards@monero.town 2 points 1 month ago

Mate, just buy some stablecoin , go to instant crypto exchanges like Exolix and swap your stable to Monero, then send it to Haveno. The issue is sorted out

[-] goatmeal@monero.town 2 points 1 month ago

I am actually going to end up using bisq2 to buy bitcoin via a reputation-based interaction, turn it into some monero on probably bisq1, and then use the monero to start interacting with haveno. it's way too many steps and fees but it saves me from ever doing any KYC.

[-] jay_edwards@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

Well, a good way I must say. I would be tired to make so many steps

[-] delirious_owl@discuss.online 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah I don't understand this. What I need is xmr to eur

I also went to haveno-reto today, and all the blog posts were about going from Fiat to xmr. That one is easy. We need docs in the reverse.

[-] admin@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

That's even easier, just make an offer selling XMR for the fiat you want?

[-] delirious_owl@discuss.online 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Where's the guide describing how to do this, including all the ways it could go wrong (including all the ways Malory might try to scam me during the trade), and how haveno mitigates each if these risks?

Until I see such comprehensive documentation, I'm not touching it.

[-] admin@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Haveno-reto.com has plenty of links to different guides and most bisq documentation and principles carry over to haveno.

[-] tusker@monero.town 2 points 1 month ago

try xmrbazaar.com there are people on there offering to sell small amounts of monero for fiat

[-] key_brolin@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

yeah, it's hard situation in case of first buying of XMR. You can try casual exchanges, swap XMR P2P, try it. Governments don't like Monero, and, therefore, CEXes too

[-] itsmect@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

The minimum security deposit is small enough to not be a problem in most cases. If you give away anything of value online, put a public donation address alongside it. If you don't you can join #getyourfirstxmr:monero.social and offer a low value deal in exchange for eg. gift cards.

[-] g2devi@feddit.nl 1 points 1 month ago

I installed Haveno-reto but haven't used it yet. Is it not possible to contact the seller directly (without deposit)?

If so, then why not just contact the seller directly and handle it out of Haveno? Other than listing an order book, Haveno wouldn't be providing any value in mediating the order since only one side is actually using Haveno.

[-] admin@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

On haveno you have a multisig that makes sure you actually receive your Monero after paying instead of just getting scammed.

[-] g2devi@feddit.nl 1 points 1 month ago

I think you miss what the poster and I are trying to say. On LocalMonero and on Bisq2, you could purchase without deposit based solely on the reputation of the person. That is all the person was asking. I commented that if Haveno had a field in the seller information for private contact (e.g. simplex, signal, etc) the trade could be done outside of Haveno since other than listing the sellers and contact information, Haveno would provide no guarantees. That's an acceptable risk for many people to start off - you just don't risk too much on first contact. Unfortunately I've checked and , Haveno doesn't provide this feature yet...IMO, it will as it incorporates Bisq2 features or at least adds a contact field in the seller information.

[-] goatmeal@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

a reputation-based trade should still happen inside the DEX. that way the trade can contribute to the seller's reputation score. bypassing it with a simplex contact would not let the DEX see that a trade actually happened.

[-] admin@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

Decentralized reputation is not a thing. Every single approach can easily be gamed by scammers. Bisq2 requires people to buy thousands of $bsq for reputation.

[-] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 month ago

The reason local Monero could offer services like that is because they are a centralized entity. So if you as a buyer locked the seller's coins and then refused to pay, local Monero could get into the dispute and give the seller the coins back. However, that means the seller of the coins had to trust local Monero was actually going to give them their money back if they asked to withdraw it because they were a third party custodian holding funds and therefore were also subject to government control orders. Which is exactly why they no longer exist. Haveno is more decentralized so the gov cant shut it down nearly so easily, but the trade off is both sides making a deposit. I know it's a pain, but for right now that's just the way it has to be. Other people have made suggestions on how to get your first Monero so that you can use the software.

[-] xmr_unlimited@monero.town 1 points 1 month ago

Were people born yesterday on a scam free internet? Yeah i get you, but I don't think not being to but their first crypto is a showstopper for haveno or why Monero isn't pumping. Bisq2 you can buy btxlc without having, swap it. Buy something on Localcoinswap and swap it. Buy something on hodlhodl and swap it. Sell something on Monero market or xmrbazaar Mine it Ask someone to borrow some to use on haveno and return it with interest