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Make it about me (lemmy.world)
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[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 29 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yeah, but no

There are assholes on both sides, like it or not.

Yes, there are loads of men who don't deserve the name, that put women down, who can only be happy on the back of women. Fuck them

Having said that, I very much remember that video of guys going to a support group for men that committed uicide with feminists waiting for them outside to yell things like "it's good that he killed himself!". Fuck those assholes too.

Can we maybe ALL be nice to EVERYONE?

I'm sorry, but this comic doesn't help. The reality is that both men and women face the same nonsense when they bring up what they have to contend with so how about we don't try to disparage either side? Listen to both sides? You know, the thing we should be always doing?

[-] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 9 points 1 day ago

I'm sorry, but this comic doesn't help.

I don't think it necessarily has to? Like, I agree with pretty much everything in your comment, aside from this part and what it implies. I read this comment as an expression of frustration from the artist, and it's certainly one that I can relate to. I also realise that there's a heckton of men who'll relate too, because of how men who want to carve out space to talk about men's issues can be cut off, even if they're not the same men as the assholes who only want to talk about men's issues when they're speaking over a woman. However, I think that saying "both sides" to this misses the point of the comic

It can be useful to ground statements in our own personal perspectives because of how it limits the scope of what we're saying. A smaller, messier example is that I am autistic and have done both disability activism and autism activism in the past. I am autistic and because of that, I am also disabled, and so many of my experiences as an autistic person can also apply more generally to disabled people. However, generalising a statement can be difficult, especially if on a difficult topic, such as institutional ableism. I was able to speak confidently on how that affected me personally, and to a more limited degree, how it affects other autistic people, because of who I am in community with. However, I don't directly know any deaf people, for example, and thus I am cautious when talking about my experiences as a disabled person, lest I over-generalise. I get a similar sense from the comic's use of "as a woman". Grounding stuff in that way is often an attempt to limit the scope of the discussion to something more manageable when grappling with something hard to articulate.

I also do think it's useful to recognise the difference in experience. As a silly example, I might say "as a woman, I need to breathe air in order to survive". I could also say "as a human, I need to breathe air in order to survive". I could also say "as an animal, I need to breathe air in order to survive", but actually, I'd need to go and double check the facts on that last one. That's sort of my point — sometimes statements are overly specific and should be simplified, like in the "as a [woman/human]" statements. However, limiting the scope (like in the "as a human" statement compared to the "as an animal" one) actually gives space for the possibility that some weird animals don't need to breathe.

Apologies if I have explained this poorly. I don't mean to come off as lecturing or argumentative; I am replying to your comment because I appreciate your points and I am open to discussion.

[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 22 points 1 day ago

Okay, I'll just say it.

Everyone has it rough right now. Mostly because we've been thoroughly railroaded by corporations for most of our lives, but still.

Everything sucks.

[-] Allero@lemmy.today 64 points 1 day ago

Honestly same thing happens when we talk about men.

Tons of women coming up, saying "women have it worse" and attempting to minimize the importance if men's issues.

Let's just listen to both sides for once, and make everyone heard. When everyone is given a platform to speak, there's no need to interrupt each other.

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[-] Holyginz@lemmy.world 307 points 1 day ago

Honestly, I agree men's issues do need to be seriously discussed, but it's wrong to hijack discussion about women's issues to talk about men's issues. The reverse is also true.

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 115 points 1 day ago

I've actually seen the opposite happen more often than the former. Both online and irl. A guy starts complaining about things and a cacophony of women show up to tell him how he'll never understand what it's like to be a woman.

Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?

[-] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 62 points 1 day ago

Yeah I really don't see the situation in the comic often at all. I won't say it doesn't happen, but I've personally witnessed way more of this reactionary diversion when men are discussing their unique issues.

[-] JayDee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I think it is most often when these conversations happen online that vocal reactionaries try to derail the conversation. More often than not, local and private dialogues I've been apart of and around tend to be more civil. In fact, both men and women seem to be on the same side when they voice their issues to each other face-to-face. I think cameras can also sour the situation, since it can put people on edge to be recorded.

At the same time, while there is a massive amount of people who get behind feminist movements and those who back counter-feminist movements, there is very few of those same counter-feminists who seem to actually ever participate in man wellbeing support infrastructure, hence why that infrastructure does not materialize. It seems that a good portion of folks only seem to pipe up as a direct counter to women trying to advocate for themselves, and then are silent and frugal when men are trying to advocate for themselves non-adversarily. I'd argue there are many people who are trying to attack both as they try to uphold the status quo.

We saw this reactionary behavior against feminist advocacy during Gamergate, as a great example - specifically when talking about the events related to Anita Sarkeesian's 'Tropes vs Women in Video games'. I went back and watched that series, and overall the points are fair criticisms of videogame writing (and honestly tropes in media in general). I don't think that anything Anita pointed out was even that vilifying either. The overall response, however, was very toxic and dismissive, and was paired with a harassment campaign.

We saw a similar backlash from a vocal minority for most subsequent feminist actions surrounding cases of sexual abuse such as "Me Too" being countered by protests such as the "HimToo" movement. There's no reason both these conversations couldn't happen but it always seems that they only ever show up at the same time, and try to steal each others thunder.

We could also talk about the Depp v Heard court case, which had extreme levels of toxicity across the board, with large portions of folks on either side choosing to view one side as exclusively as a lying abuser and the other as completely exalted of any blame when what was being shown was an relationship full of mutual toxicity.

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[-] Aurenkin@sh.itjust.works 81 points 1 day ago

I agree with this and I'd also add that bringing up men's issues to try to silence discussion of women's issues then harms men as well because people associate discussion of men's issues with that type of shit behaviour.

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[-] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 42 points 1 day ago

Tbf, the times I usually see it "hijacked" it's because of signs like "not all men but always a man" completely pretending that male rape victims don't exist, or comments like "men are trash" under the post. If I ever in my life saw a post about male victims that said "women are trash" or had comparable signs and women complained, I would see that as totally justified.

[-] hydrospanner@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

There's also plenty of room in there for less malicious situations as well (not that the malicious ones you speak of aren't happening...they are...but there's other cases as well).

I think a lot of the problems arise based on differing expectations, and ideas about what a "conversation" entails.

Too often, it seems like a conversation means "let me voice my grievances, assign blame, and explain my ideas about why it's like that and what should be done...and didn't you dare to disagree with me or question anything or point out flaws in my logic, because this is my space!"

And hey, you're free to do that...but that ain't a conversation. Conversation means you don't get to dictate the terms completely to everyone else.

I feel like those who do this do know, deep down, that they don't want a conversation at all... but "everyone shut up, let me say my thing, then agree with me" tends to draw in a smaller audience. You might be right, you might be wrong, but, "Listen to me and don't say anything I don't like." isn't a conversation.

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[-] LengAwaits@lemmy.world 23 points 1 day ago

WRT the first panel, I feel that way too.

That said, is this ragebait?

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[-] spicystraw@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago

Ah, yes. Nothing fires up a debate quite like making someone else's problems about you

[-] macrocarpa@lemmy.world 20 points 1 day ago

Responding directly to the person in the comic

I hear you when you say that as a woman, you feel societal expectations of you can be harsh and contradictory.

There isn't a way for me to experience the same things that you experience, but I can try to empathise with your experiences by comparing them with my own, and noting times when I have felt the same way. This means that I have to compare my experiences with yours. It isn't done from a place of contest, but from trying to relate.

[-] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Good point. I think in a case like this it's useful to explicitly point out that you're trying to relate, and to format your response as a question so as to demonstrate that you're actually interested in her experience. The fact that she will likely have experienced a lot of bad- faith responses will mean that we need to tread carefully when trying to compare our experiences.

[-] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 83 points 1 day ago

Why does everything have to be so us-vs.-them? We all share the same planet.

[-] JayDee@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This is potentially gender construct and sexism getting directly in the way of advocacy against real issues. Women start a protest advocating against a very real issue they face, by women for women, and it is spun as a direct attack on men. Same thing happens for men's advocacy.

"...For the Master's tool will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master's house as their only source of support..." - Audre Large, in "Master's Tools Will Never Take Down the Master's House"

I don't think most would blame many women for the practices they do in public to stay safe, despite the behavior explicitly being sexist. This is because we understand that in absence of these kinds of behaviors, women do actually get prayed upon, most often by men. It's the reality of a dangerous world. however, we get angry when the statements and phrases used to justify these behaviors are said aloud.

What we fail to acknowledge is that that same kind of victimization is possible to a guy. Most guys would find the idea of deliberately using the bathroom at the same time as their friend as weird, possibly even girly. Machismo stereotypes and trying to conform to manliness actively makes men more vulnerable .

We also downplay women being violent, yet again a gender stereotype which not only lets women get physical in public, but actually also makes women easier to dismiss when they're angry and yelling. This not only lets women get away with toxic behavior, but robs them of being taken seriously at other times.

These are both issues caused by gender, which is also actively defining how advocacy happens and creates an arbitrary divide.

[-] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 7 points 1 day ago

I liked this comment. You wrote with the nuance and balance that I strive for. Thanks for sharing

[-] Mango@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

I would like my own planet.

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[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 points 21 hours ago

"Wamen" is one of those jokes that has taken a new meaning in the context of my marriage. But I always come close to saying it around people who don't know that.

[-] veni_vedi_veni@lemmy.world 2 points 21 hours ago

sounds like baby Ramen, and now im hungry

[-] Paradachshund@lemmy.today 43 points 1 day ago

This meme is selling shovels, and the comments here are more than happy to dig holes it seems.

[-] iheartneopets@lemm.ee 10 points 1 day ago

People are reenacting the point of the comic in real time, it's wild.

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[-] slacktoid@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 day ago

I love when I'm explaining a struggle of mine that is cause of who I am and then being enrolled in the oppression Olympics.

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[-] Sombyr@lemmy.zip 27 points 1 day ago

I've noticed this an uncomfortable amount on Lemmy. Being trans, I've started bringing up my pretransition experience/traumas living as a dude even if it's not relevant whenever I talk about a women's issue that effects me because I don't get taken seriously otherwise.
Well, actually, lately I've taken up just not talking about women's issues, and really just commenting less frequently over all, because this whole place is like a mine field of people who just wanna argue. Every time before I hit send I have to think "Is somebody gonna think this is about them and get pissed with me?" And 99% of the time the answer is yes.

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[-] Mac@mander.xyz 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I was really hoping the comments here would be better.
Embarassing, tbh.

I follow a lot of women on socials, including this artist, and this shit happens on pretty much every post they make. It's crazy to me some of them have the willpower to continue creating and posting because i sure wouldn't.

[-] Tattorack@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Um, yes. This might happen a lot less if these issues that need to be talked about aren't all blamed on guys. But still yes; we constantly hear about women's problems in various media all the time, while men are usually stuck having to use some comment section to talk about their problem.

[-] JayDee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

We have groups like !mensliberation@lemmy.ca available for talking about men's issues. The problem is that these groups often attract users who explicitly want to blame the issues faced by men, mostly or entirely on women. This derails the conversation similarly, and robs men of the autonomy to improve their situation, since if women are entirely to blame then there is little men can do to help themselves than pressure women to change (a bad solution). Plenty of users there try to shut that kind of toxicity down there, luckily. That does not stop that kind of interaction, though.

Think about the similar history of the Incel movement being hijacked by misogynists.

There are issues which both genders cause for each other, but there many more issues which every gender causes for themselves as well. It is best that we all own those issues we cause at the same time that we find solutions (for both internal and external issues) which don't cause issues for others. Otherwise we'll just continue in a war of the sexes.

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this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2024
547 points (75.3% liked)

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