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[-] itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 93 points 4 days ago

Opposition to transgender rights movements

The 4B movement predominantly sees transgender rights movements as incompatible with feminism.[10] Developing out of transgender-exclusionary radical feminism (T.E.R.F.), the movement holds to gender-critical views on sex and gender,[10] supporting gender essentialism and the exclusion of transgender women from feminist spaces.[12][14] Advocates of 4B are opposed to what they call "gender ideology" (젠더론x) and promote excluding transgender women from feminist spaces, as well as romantic or sexual relationships with them (트젠 안사요).[10] In South Korea, members of the 4B have created gatherings exclusively for what they call "biological females" and "real women".[10]

yikes

[-] nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone 38 points 4 days ago

The changelog shows that this section has been added sometime between Oct 30 (last version before Nov) and today. Some possibilities:

  1. disinformation to discourage the movement. I find this most likely given that "Trans" did not appear anywhere in the original article until this was politicized in the US. The updates between versions inserted anti-trans language in multiple places throughout the article.
  2. Or, if this is actually part of the SK movement, then I have not heard anything TERF related for the US movement. The US movement probably should rename or otherwise distinguish itself from that.

Either way, I do not think this should be a point to discredit the movement. It at minimum does not seem related to the US movement and IMO is likely some clever FUD attempt to undermine the movement before it gets traction.

[-] Phen@lemmy.eco.br 14 points 4 days ago

Also none of the sources linked there mention anything about trans women.

[-] Aksamit@slrpnk.net 11 points 4 days ago

Ffs, you can do 4b without being transphobic.

Just because some 4b assholes with a website have written a transphobic clause in their manifesto, doesn't mean they speak for all 4b followers.

Stop shitting all over this movement because you've found somebody in it with an awful take on an unrelated matter.

Not having sex or relationships with folk who can impregnate you is sensible when your country is about to ban abortion and restrict contraceptive access.

[-] itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 4 days ago

I had not heard of this movement before today. Forgive me if my first instinct is to read their Wikipedia, and be off-put by various descriptions of transphobic stances. I agree with the stated goals, and @nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone pointed out that the article might have been manipulated to paint them in a bad light.
If that's the case, then I hope the article gets corrected with proper sources soon, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. But I don't like that you're insinuating that trans issues, and transphobia in particular, are unrelated to feminism.
I wish everyone earnestly resisting attempts to limit bodily autonomy strength and success in their endeavors.

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[-] UpperBroccoli@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 4 days ago

The 4B movement predominantly sees transgender rights movements as incompatible with feminism

Interesting, that his since been deleted from the Wikipedia article.

[-] itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 4 days ago

Really? I still see it, under "Beliefs"

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[-] Surp@lemmy.world 49 points 4 days ago

I highly doubt many people are doing this.

[-] themachine@lemm.ee 15 points 4 days ago

Media hyped bullshit.

[-] Huschke@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago

But the internet told me a lot of people are doing it. But since you were the last statement I read, it is now my point of view until I stumble upon another comment.

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[-] NarrativeBear@lemmy.world 72 points 4 days ago

I find nothing wrong with this movement, but at the same time I almost feel like this movement is exactly what "government's" may want. Less educated individuals having children means more uneducated voters in the long run.

Kind of like that scene in Idiocracy (2006).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJDcoqrh1ac

[-] warm@kbin.earth 38 points 4 days ago

I thought the idea of the US version was just to avoid republicans.

[-] wolfpack86@lemmy.world 22 points 4 days ago

It's not like women turned out in droves for Harris either. Who's going to withhold from the women that dropped the ball?

[-] CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world 12 points 4 days ago

You don’t need to. I’ve run the numbers elsewhere but if we assume 100% of your dating pool are women and 50%-ish are liberal, even if only half of them participate it’s going to put pressure on men very quickly if they don’t want to be alone.

Now we know those women aren’t spread equally so this movement isn’t going to be consistently effective everywhere. But in places like Texas, it would mean most of the major cities harm Republican men seeking relationships/sex.

And taken one step further, this creates a child shortage if done for long enough. Even just 10% of women deciding not to have kids will have a big effect. People worry about conservatives just having more kids but realistically they work lower end jobs and don’t have money for that. Imagine raising 3-4 kids in this economy, not many will do that.

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[-] WhiteRabbit_33@lemmy.world 14 points 4 days ago

This is eugenics propaganda. It is slightly hidden in a way of not using the blatant language of "superiority" and forcing it on people, but the base idea boils down to breeding traits such as higher intelligence into (or out of in this case) people like what is done (was attempted) with animals. This is eugenics. Please do not spread eugenics.

Eugenics does not work. There's a lot of information on the topic, but here's a 10-minute primer: https://youtu.be/kMBriCmiTu0

TL;DW Studies show genetics plays a very minor role in intelligence in humans with socioeconomic factors being the main driver. Eugenics may be able to breed certain traits in/out, but that results in the extreme detriment of others. Consider dog breeding and all the health issues breeds have who were bred for a handful of specific tasks/traits.

[-] Phen@lemmy.eco.br 8 points 4 days ago

They are talking about education, not intelligence. Children of couples with higher education will usually have a better education too.

[-] lordnikon@lemmy.world 11 points 4 days ago

Honestly I think that only works if society keeps progressing in any form for a generational time scale. Women protecting themselves and enjoying the time left. Seems like a valid course of action as anything else.

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[-] LavenderDay3544@lemmy.world 26 points 4 days ago

I feel like the only ones doing this are the perpetually online echochamber sorts. The female equivalent to the wannabe alpha male losers.

Most women living in reality, even the furthest left feminists aren't doing this shit, at least not intentionally as part of some movement. This whole article is just propaganda and rage bait to get clicks and drive ad revenue.

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[-] Hackworth@lemmy.world 22 points 4 days ago

Vote for hate. Get no love.

[-] LovingHippieCat@lemmy.world 36 points 4 days ago

The 4B movement does have some issues with transphobia from what I've heard, so hopefully with more people joining, it'll make it better.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 13 points 4 days ago

I'm not aware of the history of this movement. Could you please provide some context? I want to push against reactionary undertones I might come across

[-] Lumelore@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 4 days ago

4B on Wikipedia

First line describes it as gender critical... Then if you scroll down under the beliefs section is a section titled "Opposition to transgender rights movements"

I'm really hoping the American version of 4B stays far away from that.

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[-] nutsack@lemmy.world 11 points 4 days ago

"some issues" is a bit of an understatement

[-] problematicPanther@lemmy.world 23 points 4 days ago

As a straight white male, I support this movement.

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[-] Random123@fedia.io 19 points 4 days ago

This is dumb

I get but i feel bad for anyone falling into this mind trap

[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 24 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)
[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 12 points 4 days ago

It's just more social media posturing. Making a spectacle out of something people have been doing out of necessity.

Look at me, I've turned isolation and alienation into a consumer fetish! Subscribe and learn all the amazing new techniques to commodify your labor and spend your wages. Compete to become the highest ranked lonely person!

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[-] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago

Ignoring every other part of this movement, the 'no children' bit is a question of safety.

Even where the laws aren't dystopian nightmare shit, and you have a healthcare team on standby to provide the best care they can without needing to worry about legal fuckery, pregnancy and delivery can still kill you cuz that shit is insanely brutal.

Disallow that team from intervening when there's a miscarriage or some other complication and the mortality rate skyrockets, as seen in red states post-Roe.

That's about to be the whole country soon. Ladies, if you do get pregnant, have a plan, and a backup plan, and a backup-backup plan etc with where to go and what to do if shit even even starts to feel like it's hitting the fan.

...also if you don't already have a passport, now might be a good time.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be scheduling a hysterectomy ASAP. And remember your doc isn't going to do a background check or anything, so if they start giving you the shit about "nooo you're too young, you might regret it later!" just remember that your uterus is causing you 10/10 pain, and it makes it almost impossible to accomplish any normal tasks, and even starting to cause suicidal ideation; also you already have 4 kids with 3 dads and feel like you've lost control of your life, etc... probably not all at once or they'll know you're bullshitting, but the point is denying women's healthcare is a problem that goes way beyond abortion, and if lying is what you need to do to receive care, then don't hesitate to do it.

Good luck everyone. This situation is absolute shit.

[-] Lightor@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago

Wait so the idea is do not sleep with any men? Even men who support your views and rights? This just seems like it would radicalize more incels or generate more sexism. Like the average person who did everything they could is going to go on a date and be told "I'm not have sex until the government is fixed" which would make me say "ok, well, hit me up in 4 years."

[-] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 6 points 3 days ago

I mean, it isnt like it is the job of women to sleep with men in order to prevent them from becoming incels, that would be essentially like victim blaming at a population level. Im also not really sure that it would do much: most women arent going to do this, so the impact on average men's dating prospects is much smaller than the total lack of dating for any women that actually go through with it, but nobody is seriously suggesting that doing so will turn them into something akin to incels.

I dont expect this would really help much, beyond the obvious personal benefit that not becoming pregnant in a state that is hostile to women's reproductive health would have, but incels were going to hate and complain about women regardless of the sexual habits of those women, so I dont see it really making things worse in that regard either.

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[-] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

The idea isn't for women who are already in relationships with partners who support women's rights. The idea is more, for single women, to refuse to start any relationship at all right now. Which honestly, in an era where basic women's healthcare is under attack, maybe starting a relationship right now isn't the best idea. Will your women's rights-supporting boyfriend agree to become abstinent when the birth control you're using is taken off the market due to conservatives? Or will they want to move to the pull-out method or just accept the risk of being pregnant?

If you're a single woman, honestly, right now, maybe staying single through these next four years isn't a bad idea. It has nothing to do with the actions or beliefs of a potential partner, and everything with the fact that being a woman in any straight sexual relationship when conservatives are ascendant simply has a lot of unavoidable risks with it. The religious crazies in power believe that the only veto a woman deserves over being pregnant is the choice to have sex or not. And they seek to take away any way for women to prevent getting pregnant besides not having sex. These Christian nationalists, who were just elected, believe that the only choice women have should be pregnancy risk or abstinence.

You need to have a reality check here. The United States federal government, and the majority of state governments, will be telling every woman of reproductive age, "be abstinent or risk pregnancy. Any other tool to prevent pregnancy is morally wrong."

The government is literally trying to coerce women not to have sex before marriage. The government is literally trying to coerce women not to have sex before they're ready to become a mothers. The people soon to be in charge of the government literally believe that the only just use of sex is pregnancy. And they rule accordingly.

In what universe would you expect this to not result in a complete collapse of pre-marital sexual opportunities for straight men? It's not about punishing men. It's not that you do or do not have the right views or beliefs, or that you are a good or bad person. It's simply that for women, in this world that is being created, having sex before marriage simply isn't safe.

Sexual liberation was possible only due to the availability of effective contraception, birth control, and abortion. If you turn the contraceptive landscape back a century, sexual norms will have to return there as well. You are NOT going to have a world where there's no access to contraceptives where women are still perfectly happy being in sexual relationships before marriage.

Men, I hope you're ready to put a ring on it. Otherwise, you ain't gettin' any. Sorry, you wanted this world; you voted for it.

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[-] Omega_Jimes@lemmy.ca 9 points 3 days ago

It's just an idea voiced in some places online, that makes for a good headline, and will get lots of people active to comment and complain.

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[-] robocall@lemmy.world 16 points 4 days ago

Is it no sex for anti abortionists or for everyone? Can we still marry and have sex with pro choice good guys?

[-] unyons@feddit.org 9 points 4 days ago

From what I understand, it's not about abstaining from men because there aren't any good men. It's about abstaining to protect themselves when they live under an administration that denies them reproductive freedom.

[-] blockheadjt@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 days ago

Your level of adherence, like your body, is your choice.

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[-] crystalmerchant@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago

Lmao some women can have all these things without a man in her life.

[-] cypherpunks@lemmy.ml 11 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

🥛🤝🦆

(it's odd that PBS is promoting this, as it is actually a terf movement)

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[-] JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world 14 points 4 days ago

Then only the plaint, complicit, conservative types will breed, and pass on their values to their youth. Not sure its a good thing, nor an effective form of protest in the long term.

Then again, after this election I'm not sure what to think any more.

[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 28 points 4 days ago

Definitely stop thinking this problem will be solved by out-breeding another ideology.

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[-] auzy@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago

We'd be happy to have more single women in Australia. We allow abortion and even have public health insurance

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this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2024
460 points (93.4% liked)

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