Sodium batteries hit 458 Wh/kg: New material closes gap with lithium : futurology

[-] Toto@lemmy.world 36 points 7 months ago

Wish they gave the current energy density of lithium batteries for comparison.

[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Here's a neat comparison of how different chemistries preform. Higher up is higher energy per weight.

comparison

Looks like this is pretty old though

[-] eltrain123@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

It’s a range, but LFP is generally in the 90-160wh/kg and NMC (lithium manganese cobalt oxide) tops out around 275 wh/kg.

It’s not quite double, but doubles the density of most mass manufactured cells. Time will tell if it gets to scale, but it’s a step in the right direction.

[-] Toto@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

Feeling stupid: doesn’t this mean more energy per kilogram is possible with Na cells?

[+] DeathsEmbrace@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

[deleted]

[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 12 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Isn’t most of the weight with hydrogen coming from the high pressure tank and gas regulator?

My impression is that the gas is light but whole system hydrogen is pretty heavy.

edit: Did some more reading. Hydrogen is still competitive on a Wh/kg basis, but worse on a Wh/L basis. Larger tanks are harder to fit in passenger cars than batteries and hydrogen’s poor whole system efficiency has kept fuel prices high while lithium batteries and solar power keep getting cheaper.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago

H2 to get weight of tank down and highest density can be liquified. This works best by far for aviation that refuels right before takeoff. Can work for commercial boats as well. Costs more energy to liquify than compress.

[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 5 points 7 months ago

This makes hydrogen even more expensive and pushes it further into niches which need maximum range at any cost.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 months ago

Renewable h2 can be cheaper than gasoline or kerosene. Even with liquifaction. Has to use behind the meter or wholesale renewables instead of fixed utility pricing with transmission costs.

Planes typically spend 100x in fuel over lifetime compared to price of plane

[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 4 points 7 months ago

Where are you finding this cheap renewable H2?

Or is this a theoretical future development?

[-] EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 7 months ago

I'm assuming the concept they're thinking of goes something like: Using renewable energy like solar and wind to convert water (or some other source of H2) into liquid H2 for the increased energy density compared to charging lithium batteries or equivalent with those same renewables.

There'd be tons of energy loss along the way, but since renewables are effectively "free energy," I can see that it would work in theory.

[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 3 points 7 months ago

Right, hydrogen only makes economic sense if the fuel is free because the whole system efficiency stinks compared to BEVs.

[-] Maalus@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Well, my city operates busses on hydrogen. Must be worth it, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. We also have a hydrogen fuel station.

Edit: for actual numbers - 100km - 6.9kg of hydrogen average usage - 387 PLN. For comparison - diesel - 168 PLN, but it just assumes fuel cost. They explain that filters, maintenance, oil etc isn't factored in and is higher for diesel, where hydrogen is a lot less complicated and requires less consumables to operate.

For something that is just beginning to be introduced, versus diesel which was used since time immemorial, the cost isn't that bad.

For range, they say 450km "full", but one shouldn't completely empty the fuel tank. It takes 25 mins to fuel a bus from zero to full. They're silent as hell, don't need huge electric infrastructure (since they refuel so quick). Long term they predict that fossil fuels will be more expensive, with hydrogen reducing in price. They also get funding from the country for it, since it is a "green" vehicle. Also, zero emissions obviously, but still brake dust and tire particulate

The biggest drawbacks is the current fuel price and the price of the vehicle itself.

[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 1 points 7 months ago

Wonder where they get cheap H2 or if it’s being subsidized somehow? It’s like $36/kg here!

[-] Maalus@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

We have a private fuel station that does hydrogen, and the busses have two backup solutions. One that is able to fuel it to 100%, and the other they call "flyby" (?) which does 50% max. They get it hauled to the station using "hydrogen carriers" which each can get up to one tonne of hydrogen to the station. Apparently the station itself is electrically self sustaining from solar panels too.

The current cost for personal vehicles is 69 pln (heh) per kg. They say that personal vehicles can refuel in 4 mins for a 650km range. For busses, they paid 56 pln per kg from October 23' to May 24' (that's when the article I'm looking at aggregated the data). In total they paid 1.3 million pln, for twenty busses Now that I read it, 69pln is gross, 56pln is net, so they pay the same as the public. They project ~50k pln each bus will save over the next three years compared to diesels.

Apparently, they got subsidies / EU funding to buy em. 65% of the value. Now they are buying more and they're getting it 100% refunded - they're only paying the tax, totalling 800k PLN, which is a steal. The busses themselves are modern as fuck too, passengers love em and so do drivers. Shit like side mirrors is a thing of the past, they get cameras now. They went through winter like a boss - no issues with them being susceptible to frost / freezing temps (remember, Poland is about as high up in latitude as Canada). Apparently it is sneaky enough to sneak up on motherfuckers, they have speakers mounted to simulate a car going 40km/h so pedestrians don't get run over by it (since they're basically an electric vehicle with a small powerplant on top).

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago

Making h2 at less than $2/kg from renewables is achievable today. 300 bar at $2. Lh2 at $2.50.

Sales prices are much higher because capacity is still low, and toyota bundles some free to its fcev customers, and sales volumes are low such that a high profit margin is required to pay for filling infrastructure.

$2/kg is equivalent range in a fuel cell compared to 1$/gallon gasoline. That is much less than refinery sales prices of gasoline or diesel.

Consumer prices have chicken vs egg problem.

[-] AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space 24 points 7 months ago

Your next spicy pillow may be a salty pillow

[-] Isoprenoid@programming.dev 10 points 7 months ago

I work in the electronics industry and had never heard the term "spicy pillow". I'll hand in my badge.

https://www.powerbankexpert.com/lithium-battery-spicy-pillow/

[-] ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

There's a Lemmy community for pictures of spicy pillows. It is good.

[-] threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 months ago

!spicypillows@lemmy.world

[-] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago

Good to hear. Let's hope it actually works at scale.

[-] I_am_10_squirrels@beehaw.org 14 points 7 months ago

Vanadium is relatively abundant, and is produced as a byproduct from steel smelting. This is nice since more carbon intensive steps aren't required.

[-] massive_bereavement@fedia.io 7 points 7 months ago

We're increasingly eating so much salt that at some point maybe The Matrix plot will end up making sense.

[-] EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 7 months ago

I wonder what the machines will use all the microplastics for.

[-] Aqarius@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

Nanomachines, son!

[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 5 points 7 months ago

Here's the original press report https://uh.edu/news-events/stories/2024/december/12202024-canepa-batteries.php

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 months ago

Vanadium, including flow batteries, have never provided useful energy storage solutions, and never will.

The flow application is a scam for vanadium producers to take supply off the market for an already extremely expensive commodity. The advantage is that it does not need recycling to sell it off.

Consuming it in batteries would be ultra expensive batteries. Lithium much more abundant, as is nickel and cobalt if needed

[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago

Sodium batteries are thermal batteries, right? So they need turbines to recover the energy into electricity? Or are these chemical sodium batteries?

[-] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 16 points 7 months ago

Chemical. It's in the article:

Battery prototype

The researchers also created a battery prototype using the new material, NaxV2(PO4)3, demonstrating significant energy storage improvements. NaxV2(PO4)3, part of a group called “Na superionic conductors” or NaSICONs, is designed to let sodium ions move smoothly in and out of the battery during charging and discharging, according to a press release.

The material has a unique way of handling sodium, allowing it to work as a single-phase system. This means it remains stable as it releases or takes in sodium ions. This allows the NaSICON to remain stable during charging and discharging while delivering a continuous voltage of 3.7 volts versus sodium metal, higher than the 3.37 volts in existing materials, according to researchers.

[-] Aqarius@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

I wonder, though, if having to use Vanadium defeats the point of dropping Lithium for Sodium.

[-] MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net 6 points 7 months ago

Sodium batteries are thermal batteries, right? So they need turbines to recover the energy into electricity?

Are you thinking of concentrated solar, maybe?

[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

I think I was mixing those up with thermal energy storage and thermal batteries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_battery#Thermal_batteries_(non-rechargeable)

Sodium batteries do have a high temperature type, but it does look like they are non rechargeable and do generate electricity directly. The thermal energy storage only stores thermal energy rather than electricity, but they use sand.

Futurology