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Italy calls for 'immediate' summit between US, Europe following Zelensky-Trump clash (kyivindependent.com)
submitted 1 year ago by MicroWave@lemm.ee to c/world@lemmy.world
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Summary

Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni has called for an "immediate" summit between the US, EU, and Western allies to discuss Ukraine following a heated White House meeting between Trump and President Zelenskyy.

The February 28 meeting ended without agreement on a minerals deal after escalating into a confrontation over US aid and peace deal conditions.

Meloni warned that Western division "makes us all weaker" as European leaders reaffirmed support for Ukraine.

EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas commented that "the free world needs a new leader," while European allies worry about being excluded from US-Russia negotiations to end the war.

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[-] BenLeMan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Hard pass. He would just use the opportunity to rant at our diplomats like he did with Zelenskyy. We wouldn't want to sign any deals with a criminally insane dictator anyway.

The bond is broken, the ship has sailed. Time for us to pursue a Europe First strategy. Post haste, preferably.

And it's not just investments into military hardware we need to make but also pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, etc. We need to become independent as soon as possible.

The groundwork is there. We can do it if we really want. MEGA will beat MAGA, and screw Trump and his puppet master.

[-] teamevil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

.

[-] torrentialgrain@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

I understand that Meloni is struggling with cognitive dissonance here because she loves Trump and the American far right but also recognizes Russia as the obvious enemy to Europe that they are (and thereby making Ukraine our natural ally).

But the time for courting is over. America has become a hostile nation and they might actually be our enemy soon.

Increase European integration and federalization. Increase defense spending and fund a European MIC. Organize into a joint European army. This and only this can be our way forward or we will be crushed between two fascist superpowers.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

I understand that Meloni is struggling with cognitive dissonance

They are doing what every politician and ruler does, they lie to the public and do whatever gets them more power and wealth.

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

It's actually worse. I think Meloni is not in the game for power or wealth (at least, not mainly), she is someone who is in for her ideas. The problem is that her ideas are shitty neofascism.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

fascism had no ideas neither, their ideas were shifted constantly to whatever suited them best. This person hanged to fascism to get votes and distanced from it once elected to keep votes.

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

No, I think they had ideas. In Italy at least the ideological pillars were quite clear and are the same as they were 100 years ago. Support to industrial class (capital) was a constant and still is. Militarism, religion in politics, nationalism, racial discrimination, anticommunism etc. also. In general I agree that fascism is not an ideology as much as a way to conduct politics. But Italian fascists did not evolve or change in the last century. Maybe we can discuss how nationalism became atlantism (because anticommunism prevailed), but apart from that, I see quite a lot of stability in those ideas.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

No, I think they had ideas. In Italy at least the ideological pillars were quite clear and are the same as they were 100 years ago. Support to industrial class (capital) was a constant and still is. Militarism, religion in politics, nationalism, racial discrimination, anticommunism etc. also.

None of these things were a mussolini constant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti!_(newspaper)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Islam_(Mussolini)

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

I am aware of my own country's history. Socialist roots of Mussolini contributed to the ideological foundation of fascism, and some of these roots are somewhat visible and remained until today in neofascist parties. For example, looking at how Forza Nuova and Casapound have deep roots in more proletarian suburbs and operated things like food delivery to poor people (only Italians, of course). The appeal to lower class while ultimately making the interests of capital is one of the reasons fascism is a hard disease to get rid of in Italy.

Not sure what you meant with the second link. The chapter of mixing religion and state is a very long discussion, and the racial discrimination is so obvious that I won't even try to argue it (from colonialism, to folks songs like "faccetta nera", to the practice of madamato).

In any case, the fascist tradition in Italy has been stable. Meloni is from Almirante's school, for example, and honestly I would be hard pressed to find substantial differences in core pillars of Almirante's party and Fratelli d'Italia.

Do you have any concrete example perhaps of areas in which fascist parties in Italy changed positions substantially over the years?

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

Do you have any concrete example perhaps of areas in which fascist parties in Italy changed positions substantially over the years?

They always do like they are doing it right now

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

So "no".

[-] index@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgia_Meloni

"Prior to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, she was in favour of better relations with Russia and supported lifting sanctions on the Russian Federation in 2014. In 2018, she congratulated Vladimir Putin for his re-election as president. In 2021, she wrote that Russia under Putin defends European values and Christian identity."

Do your own research

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

A specific alliance is not an ideological change. She was allied of Russia until that was functional to pushing her own values (racism, anti-lgbtq, anti-muslim, christianity etc.), and didn't conflict with atlantism. Now that it does, things changed. If anything this is an argument in favour of my thesis.

You are talking about research as if this was not known to anybody. You need to explain how this change in relationship with Russia is an ideological change. She also changed coalitions and historically she changed relationship with Lega and before that with Forza Italia. That doesn't prove that her ideology changed.

Again, give a concrete example.

Edit: some examples in case you think I am asking an impossible task:

  • D'alema. Or in general PCI to Ulivo to PD. Completely different politics.
  • Legs. Consistent until Bossi lead it. Salvini (who started as a communist lol) exploited the opportunity and completely transformed the core politics (no more Padania, nationalism instead).
  • M5S, hopefully no need to even say it.

FDI instead is exactly the inheritance of MSI, following the same politics. Meloni herself considered Almirante the father of the right wing. That's the core. And presenting it as opportunistic is underestimating it. Salvini is opportunistic. He is a fascist when is useful, he is a politics whore, will change in a blink of an eye. Meloni is not. She has her shitty ideas since she was a teenager militant, and those will stay the same.

Sure, depending on what is happening she might be anti-EU or more filo-EU, but that's because those positions (like in the case of Russia) are subordinated to the core values of her (party).

[-] index@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

This person got elected campaigning against EU and is now captaining a EU summit. They campaigned against surrogacy and electric cars and are in bed with elon musk contracting him military infrastructures.

Salvini is opportunistic. He is a fascist when is useful, he is a politics whore, will change in a blink of an eye. Meloni is not.

The current government is a coalition between meloni, salvini and berlusconi party.

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This person got elected campaigning against EU and is now captaining a EU summit.

And that's what I said. Completely expected. And her position about EU will change again depending on what happens in Europe. Right now she is still trying to reconcile EU and US.

The current government is a coalition between meloni, salvini and berlusconi party.

That's also what I said. Government coalitions, especially in Italy, are not expressive of any particular ideology. Also not Berlusconi's party anymore, thankfully, since he is feeding worms.

What I want to say is that Meloni has some core values. These values are essentially the same that were for MSI, and those were the same that were for the PNF. Other positions are subordinated to those values, which means that her position about Europe, but also her atlantism change over time, depending on what serves best those core values. Atlantism for example sounds extremely contradictory for a nationalist party which, during fascism, preached autarchy. So, did they change? No, not really. Atlantism is essentially a byproduct of anticommunism since the cold war era. Likewise, EU position change depending if that is more functional to push nationalism (I.e., Netherlands and Germany want to strangle Italy - nationalism) or other stuff.

The biggest difference is that people like Salvini were born politically as communists, joined the Lega Nord preaching independence of Padania within a party that literally wiped their ass with Italian flag, then moved to become nationalist populistic party once he took the lead. What are Salvini's core political values? None. Meloni is a much more serious politician, which makes her much more dangerous, because she does have an ideology, and she does what is functional to push that ideology. Saying that fascists don't have ideas is - IMHO - straight up dangerous, because it gives the idea that they are not serious about what they do, and if the wind changes, they will also change. Meloni so far didn't change since she had a party with 3-4% and played Berlusconi's crutch until now.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

I agree with meloni coming from a worst background but that background held no real core values too. What ideologies the mafia has? If needed they would even resort to kill children like they have done many times. What i'm trying to highlight to you is that scum simply doesn't play by the rules. If tomorrow international press were to start shitting on the church this person would do a 360 and change their views like mussolini did with lateran treaty

[-] sudneo@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

And that's where I disagree. Playing by the rules has nothing to do with not having values. MSI had ideology, their founders came directly from RSI and never renegaded the fascist regime, and Fini - who "evolved" the right wing - is seen as a traitor by those in Almirante's school because he did renegade fascism (at least, formally). Meloni's party could have turned populist and pursue more favorable positions, and instead she stuck with her shitty ideas despite having minimal consensus early on.

If tomorrow international press were to start shitting on the church this person would do a 360 and change their views like mussolini did with lateran treaty

I don't think so at all. It's a speculation of course. Which to me makes it worse, because the idea of Christianity she has (conservative, strict gender roles, strong "moral" values, etc.) survives the relationship with the church itself, even if this one should evolve (unlikely). Take for example abortion. Abortion has wide support among Italian population. Despite this, she still sticks with her reactionary position, because this is descending from those core values. Look instead Salvini's relationship with religion to see what an ideological whore looks like...

By the way, you are talking about Mussolini's evolution, but that was before he founded fascism, and anyway his Later treaties were a perfect political instrument to gain power. Deschner in "Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums" (Criminal history of Christianity) covers the whole timeline quite in depth, and if it was not for the church support he wouldn't have managed to pass the "leggi fascistissime" (including the electoral reform) which ultimately lead him to take full power, via the alienation of Sturzo.

So once again, Mussolini's relationship with the church is debatable and mostly functional to him pursuing his power grab. For sure there are strong overlaps with traditional christian morality and fascism, but I see these as more part of the strategy to form a strong identity around which to build nationalism.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

MSI had ideology, their founders came directly from RSI and never renegaded the fascist regime

Fascists fought WWII against the allies and lost to them, these people siding with USA make them sound like the perfect renegates.

I don’t think so at all. It’s a speculation of course.

They scream shit all day and then do the opposite, you know they would do it.

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

How fucked is the world, when Meloni is the reasonable one...

[-] Scrollone@feddit.it 0 points 1 year ago

I'm Italian and I would have never thought that Meloni would be the reasonable one in this shit. Oh well.

[-] d00phy@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Italy needs to understand that thinking you can reason with Trump makes Europe weaker.

In fact, this works with all countries. He’s a literal baby. He doesn’t understand or want to hear your reasoning because he knows he’s right. As soon as everybody understands that, the quicker they can get to the task of isolating the US as much as possible.

[-] robbinhood@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Europe really needs to beef up its defense industries and whatnot. America's unreliability is becoming an existential threat and it's clear that Trump and Co will be extremely opportunistic and quick to align with Russia.

[-] Spawn7586@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

I love reading about people not knowing the EU military industry writing about how it's somehow weak. Newsflash: it's not. We don't talk or write about it 'cause it's sensitive data. We protect sensitive data. Our armies may not be strong, but our military industry is.

[-] robbinhood@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Your industries can't even supply artillery and basic equipment to Ukraine, at least nowhere at the level needed to win the war. This is well-known. European leaders have been harping on the need to upgrade capacities.

So, newsflash: sorry, your military industry isn't up to par yet. The potential is there. Many of the technologies are there. The actual support and capacity to make the most out of that potential is lacking.

This isn't in any way a controversial opinion. The reality on the ground with constant shortages and European leaders themselves acknowledging the military industry needs more support is well known.

[-] vane@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I would start from removing dollar reserves from european banks. The value of money is only when people believe it have value. So if US money won't have any value Europe won't need US help.

[-] SabinStargem@lemmings.world 0 points 1 year ago

I approve. As an American, I have been trying to swap my savings for Euros, because it feels like that the American Dollar will hyperinflate. However, I have a concern:

Musk is likely to try to install a Muskcoin and create a X Everything app, so that he can control the money of Americans. The EU will need to offer Euro banking services in the Blue States to oppose the establishment of Muskcoin. Also, blacklist American billionaires from European fiscal institutions, such as not accepting the swap of Musk's dollars for Euros or EU properties.

[-] Rooty@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I've never expected that the Cyberpunk eurodollar is about to be defictionalized.

[-] Gsus4@mander.xyz 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Who's gonna be representing murica there? Is it gonna be this happy threesome?

[-] adespoton@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

I trust the sofa; it looks reliable.

[-] biofaust@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

I am Italian and I beg the EU to ostracize Meloni and Orban as much as possible, especially in this crucial moment. As fascists and Putin puppets just like Trump, their simple plan is stall things long enough for Ukraine to be in an even worse situation.

[-] Denixen@feddit.nu 1 points 1 year ago

I am not Italian, rather swedish, but what I have seen from Meloni in reality is that she has taken a very firm stance against Putin and his war on Ukraine and has given huge amounts of military equipment (scroll down to Italy to see what military equipment they have given) and and money to Ukraine. Meloni has never stood in the way of political decisions to support Ukraine or sanctions against Russia to my knowledge, rather has been at the forefront of implementing them and has continuously condemned Putin and Russia's agression. Exactly in what way is Meloni a puppet of Putin?

[-] biofaust@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

We give a lot because we produce a lot. Italy's arms export grew 86% between 2019 and 2024.

And while we are too weak to be openly against our major trade partner, Germany, she is also balancing her act with our second trade partner, the USA and trying to explain her electorate that she is still the one they voted for who called Orbán an exemplary leader, all while Salvini, another prominent member of her government, screamed for a Peace Prize to Trump as soon as he appeared to give in to Putin.

Right now Starmer and Meloni are what is dragging everyone else's feet on a United EU Defense plan and an EU-led diplomatic move towards Russia.

In the 100 years old tradition of fascist parties in Italy, she is also subject to the whims of much more powerful actors internally and externally.

[-] stardust@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago

America is pro Russian anti Europe. This charade of pretending like the US isn't is a waste of time.

[-] teamevil@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Just saying...it's fucking Trump and his genocidal narcissistic billionaires...There are millions of us agast and horrified at this goddamn heel turn to Russian scum...and fuck me lots of us in the US are dumber than dog shit with no ability for critical thought.

Slava Ukraine!

[-] viking@infosec.pub 0 points 1 year ago

Trump and Elon are. I doubt the same is true for most actual Americans.

this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2025
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