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TL;DR: Self-Driving Teslas Rear-End Motorcyclists, Killing at Least 5

Brevity is the spirit of wit, and I am just not that witty. This is a long article, here is the gist of it:

  • The NHTSA’s self-driving crash data reveals that Tesla’s self-driving technology is, by far, the most dangerous for motorcyclists, with five fatal crashes that we know of.
  • This issue is unique to Tesla. Other self-driving manufacturers have logged zero motorcycle fatalities with the NHTSA in the same time frame.
  • The crashes are overwhelmingly Teslas rear-ending motorcyclists.

Read our full analysis as we go case-by-case and connect the heavily redacted government data to news reports and police documents.

Oh, and read our thoughts about what this means for the robotaxi launch that is slated for Austin in less than 60 days.

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Tesla self driving is never going to work well enough without sensors - cameras are not enough. It’s fundamentally dangerous and should not be driving unsupervised (or maybe at all).

[-] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 84 points 1 month ago

Accurate.

Each fatality I found where a Tesla kills a motorcyclist is a cascade of 3 failures.

  1. The car's cameras don't detect the biker, or it just doesn't stop for some reason.
  2. The driver isn't paying attention to detect the system failure.
  3. The Tesla's driver alertness tech fails to detect that the driver isn't paying attention.

Taking out the driver will make this already-unacceptably-lethal system even more lethal.

[-] jonne@infosec.pub 66 points 1 month ago
  1. Self-driving turns itself off seconds before a crash, giving the driver an impossibly short timespan to rectify the situation.
[-] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 61 points 1 month ago

... Also accurate.

God, it really is a nut punch. The system detects the crash is imminent.

Rather than automatically try to evade... the self-driving tech turns off. I assume it is to reduce liability or make the stats look better. God.

[-] jonne@infosec.pub 36 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yep, that one was purely about hitting a certain KPI of 'miles driven on autopilot without incident'. If it turns off before the accident, technically the driver was in control and to blame, so it won't show up in the stats and probably also won't be investigated by the NTSB.

[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

so it won't show up in the stats

Hopefully they wised up by now and record these stats properly....?

[-] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 22 points 1 month ago

NHTSA collects data if self-driving tech was active within 30 seconds of the impact.

The companies themselves do all sorts of wildcat shit with their numbers. Tesla's claimed safety factor right now is 8x human. So to drive with FSD is 8x safer than your average human driver, that's what they say on their stock earnings calls. Of course, that's not true, not based on any data I've seen, they haven't published data that makes it externally verifiable (unlike Waymo, who has excellent academic articles and insurance papers written about their 12x safer than human system).

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[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago

Even when it is just milliseconds before the crash, the computer turns itself off.

Later, Tesla brags that the autopilot was not in use during this ( terribly, overwhelmingly) unfortunate accident.

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[-] ascense@lemm.ee 15 points 1 month ago

Most frustrating thing is, as far as I can tell, Tesla doesn't even have binocular vision, which makes all the claims about humans being able to drive with vision only even more blatantly stupid. At least humans have depth perception. And supposedly their goal is to outperform humans?

[-] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago

Tesla's argument of "well human eyes are like cameras therefore we shouldn't use LiDAR" is so fucking dumb.

Human eyes have good depth perception and absolutely exceptional dynamic range and focusing ability. They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised, certainly more so than any computer added to a car.

And even with all those advantages humans have, we still crash from time to time and make smaller mistakes regularly.

[-] NABDad@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised

A neural network that has been in development for 650 million years.

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[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 81 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Hey guys relax! It's all part of the learning experience of Tesla FSD.
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

Regards
Elon Musk
CEO of Tesla

[-] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

P.S. Volunteers needed for the Mars mission as well.

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[-] Gork@lemm.ee 66 points 1 month ago

Lidar needs to be a mandated requirement for these systems.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Or at least something other than just cameras. Even just adding ultrasonic senses to the front would be an improvement.

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[-] HK65@sopuli.xyz 14 points 1 month ago

Honestly, emergency braking with LIDAR is mature and cheap enough at this point that is should be mandated for all new cars.

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[-] 0x0@programming.dev 52 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This is news? Fortnine talked about it two years ago.
TL;DR Tesla removed LIDAR to save a buck and the cameras see two red dots that the 'puter thinks it's a far away car at night when indeed it's a close motorcycle.

[-] LesserAbe@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago

It's helpful to remember that not everyone has seen the same stories you have. If we want something to change, like regulators not allowing dangerous products, then raising public awareness is important. Expressing surprise that not everyone knows about something can be counterproductive.

Going beyond that, wouldn't the new information here be the statistics?

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[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

It could be two motorcycles side by side.

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[-] lnxtx@feddit.nl 37 points 1 month ago

Stop dehumanizing drivers who killed people.
Feature, wrongly called, Full Self-Driving, shall be supervised at any time.

[-] SouthEndSunset@lemm.ee 27 points 1 month ago

If you’re going to say your car has “full self driving”, it should have that, not “full self driving (but needs monitoring.)” or “full self driving (but it disconnects 2 seconds before impact.)”.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 10 points 1 month ago

I think it's important to call out inattentive drivers while also calling out the systems and false advertising that may lead them to become less attentive.

If these systems were marketed as "driver assistance systems" instead of "full self driving", certainly more people would pay attention. The fact that they've been allowed to get away with this blatant false advertising is astonishing.

They're also obviously not adequately monitoring for driver attentiveness.

[-] 9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 35 points 1 month ago

Sounds like NHTSA needs a visit from DOGE!

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[-] AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 29 points 1 month ago

I imagine bicyclists must be effected as well if they're on the road (as we should be, technically). As somebody who has already been literally inches away from being rear-ended, this makes me never want to bike in the US again.

Time to go to Netherlands.

[-] poopkins@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago
[-] nulluser@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

Thank you for your service.

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[-] Substance_P@lemmy.world 29 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)
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[-] Visstix@lemmy.world 29 points 1 month ago

Why is self-driving even allowed?

[-] kameecoding@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Because muh freedum, EU are a bunch of commies for not allowing this awesome innovation on their roads

(I fucking love living in the EU)

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[-] DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 28 points 1 month ago

Five years ago, you could not have brought this up without Musk simps defending it.

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[-] keesrif@lemmy.world 25 points 1 month ago

On a quick read, I didn't see the struck motorcycles listed. Last I heard, a few years ago, was that this mainly affected motorcycles with two rear lights that are spaced apart and fairly low to the ground. I believe this is mostly true for Harleys.

The theory I recall was that this rear light configuration made the Tesla assume it was looking (remember, only cameras without depth data) at a car that was further down the road - and acceleration was safe as a result. It miscategorised the motorcycle so badly that it misjudged it's position entirely.

[-] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 28 points 1 month ago

I also saw that theory! That's in the first link in the article.

The only problem with the theory: Many of the crashes are in broad daylight. No lights on at all.

I didn't include the motorcycle make and model, but I did find it. Because I do journalism, and sometimes I even do good journalism!

The models I found are: Kawasaki Vulcan (a cruiser bike, just like the Harleys you describe), Yamaha YZF-R6 (a racing-style sport bike with high-mount lights), and a Yamaha V-Star (a "standard" bike, fairly low lights, and generally a low-slung bike). Weirdly, the bike models run the full gamut of the different motorcycles people ride on highways, every type is represented (sadly) in the fatalities.

I think you're onto something with the faulty depth sensors. Sensing distance is difficult with optical sensors. That's why Tesla would be alone in the motorcycle fatality bracket, and that's why it would always be rear-end crashes by the Tesla.

[-] littleomid@feddit.org 10 points 1 month ago

At least in EU, you can’t turn off motorcycle lights. They’re always on. In eu since 2003, and in US, according to the internet, since the 70s.

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[-] jonne@infosec.pub 27 points 1 month ago

Whatever it is, it's unacceptable and they should really ban Tesla's implementation until they fix some fundamental issues.

[-] ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The ridiculous thing is, it has 3 cameras pointing forward, you only need 2 to get stereoscopic depth perception with cameras...why the fuck are they not using that!?

Edit: I mean, I know why, it's because it's cameras with three different lenses used for different things (normal, wide angle, and telescopic) so they're not suitable for it, but it just seems stupid to not utilise that concept when you insist on a camera only solution.

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[-] Ledericas@lemm.ee 23 points 1 month ago

the cybertruck is sharp enough to cut a deer in half, surely a biker is just as vulnerable.

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[-] SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 22 points 1 month ago

Trucks in general have gotten so big they are pedestrian deathtraps

[-] expatriado@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago

as daily rider, i must add having a tesla behind to the list of road hazards to look out

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[-] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago

Every captcha.....can you see the motorcycle? I would be afraid if they wanted all the squares with small babies or maybe just regular folk...can you pick all the hottie's? Which of these are body parts?

[-] Litebit@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

Elon needs to take responsibility for their death.

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[-] misteloct@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

I'm wondering how that stacks up to human drivers. Since the data is redacted I'm guessing not well at all.

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[-] PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

This is another reason I’ll never drive a motorcycle. Fuck that shit.

[-] KayLeadfoot@fedia.io 10 points 1 month ago

It's like smoking: if you haven't started, don't XD

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this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2025
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