Hey folks
I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.
I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.
Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:
- Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
- Use arguments rather than calling people names
- Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual
With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.
On defederation in general
First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.
I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.
Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.
Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.
Regarding hexbear
Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.
The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.
My own experience with hexbear
I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.
Background
My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).
I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.
Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.
Hexbear user response
Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:
- Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
- Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
- Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier
I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.
Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.
Hexbear admin response
After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:
- They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
- They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
- They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways
Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.
At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.
I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.
Where thing stand right now
I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.
Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.
Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.
Don't defederate from hexbear, they aren't that bad.
They aren't great, it's like a bunch of very confident college kids refusing to listen to anything that challenges their beliefs. There is a high percentage of trolls, but it's the Internet. I've seen some shockingly bad takes, like tiananmen square had no casualties, or as highlighted by this thread, criticism of the USSRs well documented atrocities is tantamount to Holocaust denial.
Just ignore them and move on.
There are hexbear users in this thread calling for your admin (and others) to be executed. That seems pretty bad to me.
what?
Wow, that's quite the disgusting take. I don't really have anything to say but at least I understand why you don't want to defederate now.
I agree comrade, and that was my original post to the mod in question on our thread, but I don't think here is the place to relitigate it. Anyone who wants to come and debate it can do, but this thread is for Lemm.ee users primarily to have their say and I don't want to dilute that.
I see that you linked an opinion article, however you have misrepresented the article and it's implications alongside my statement.
At no point does the article say if you compare numbers, or mention other atrocities you are denying the Holocaust. It is saying the damage caused by the Holocaust was on a scale that is not analogous to other atrocities and it is possible to attempt to trivialize the Holocaust by turning it into a numbers game. There is much about how Baltic people may use this as a deflection for their own involvement with the Holocaust, but that's clearly conjecture.
Also I never said to compare Stalin to Hitler, I said mentioning Stalin's atrocities existence will get you called a Holocaust denier. I'm sure you see that you proved my point.
The Double Genocide Theory is well known nazi propaganda that was developed in Nazi Germany and continues to be propogated to this day. Anti-semitism watch groups will gladly educate you on the subject.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Regardless of how you feel about your intentions and the validity of the source you got this crap from, there's no real argument about the fact that this is the narrative you've picked up and the cause you're contributing to.
It's not double genocide theory just to discuss Stalin's atrocities in general, and the article you linked does not support an interpretation like that. The theory is specifically that the Soviets carried out a genocide that is equal in its horror to the Holocaust. It's perfectly possible to say that the Soviet Union committed appalling crimes against non-Jewish Eastern Europeans without calling the two equivalent. The author of the article even points this out:
Unless you think that the author is also conducting double genocide theory with that sentence.
This would have been the accepted action a little over 10 years ago. I think we've learned and experienced a lot since then. Just because something is online doesn't make it harmless. Radicalization is a real threat. It's how we got MAGA, ISIS, etc. Their ideology accepts summary executions in the street.
I was indifferent to defederation before, I don't leap to trampling the speech of others, but interacting here has opened my eyes. There's no way they can stay. The popular cliche "If there's 9 guys and 1 nazi sitting a table, there's 10 nazis sitting at a table" fits here.
Hexbear is probably the instance furthest from MAGA/Nazis on Lemmy.
It was not to compare ideologies but the end result of extremism and radicalization. Words become violent action and a willingness to forego peaceful change.
That said, someone just insulted me by calling me a Liberal so I dunno, feels kinda MAGA-y to me ;).
During slavery, being an abolitionist was a radical extremist position; does that mean abolitionists were like MAGA/nazis? During feudalism, being pro-democracy was a radical extremist position, does that mean that anti-monarchists were like MAGA/nazis. During the Nazi reign, being anti-Nazi was a radical extremist position, does that mean that anti-nazis were nazis?
Are you under the impression that MAGA people are the first and only people to disagree with liberals? Marxists have been doing that since long before Trump was born.
No, those were not radical extremist positions. Anti-Nazi was the default position, it did not start small and grow. For Abolition, that depends on what region you're referring to but in the US, it was not a radical position. Even prominent slaveholders admitted slavery was bad although it didn't change their behavior.
I only have the unfortunate experience of encountering MAGA types who revel in using the term as a pejorative. Regardless, hurling personal attacks is unpleasant no matter who's doing it.
Yes, they were radical extremists. Anti-Nazi most certainly was no the default position in Nazi Germany.
You're universalizing your own experience onto others. As someone who's background isn't Western, I loath westerners telling me that I have to abide by their Overton window or else I'm an 'extremist'
This is what I mean; there exists a huge amount of political thought outside of the extremely narrow, and from my perspective, extremist, USA political environment.
I can guarantee you from repeated personal experience that political 'moderates' hurl personal attacks with the best of them.
It feels kind of MAGA-y to you because you're using the American definition of Liberal. Both the American Republican party and Democratic party are ideological liberals. Whom MAGA folk would call "liberal", we just call "blue-MAGA".
Comparing Hexbear to ISIS = civil, polite, rational discussion
Posting a dumb emoji at a mean person = vile, reprehensible, beyond the pale
I'd call it a strawman but it's so weak, I don't think there's even any straw.
What exactly did you mean by this?
I'd call this a debate but it's weak, I don't think there's even anything but bait.
There was no massacre within Tiananmen Square. This isn't even a controversial statement. Look it up in a source you yourself consider to be neutral.
Let me know what sources you'll accept, because there is an abundance of evidence about the massacre, including photographs.
The only people contesting this is the Chinese government and fringe groups.
Well them and all the commies at The Columbia Journalism Review.
Saying "there was no massacre on tianamen square, but 300 people were killed about a mile away from it on the night of a large demonstration there" isn't the flex you think it is.
It's not a flex, it's a statement of fact. people died. everyone on Hexbear acknowledges this, and probably spends more time than anyone telling others this.
What is not factual is any claim that "thousands of people were run over by tanks within Tiananmen Square", which people from multiple instances (including this one) have posted in the last week without a hint of irony.
So why is everyone so hostile to having truthful accounts of world events? Are people really so offended that they are unable to outright lie without being questioned?
Tell that to the most respected journalistic institution in the U.S.; it's not some random Hexbear user who wrote that.
I'm glad you read the entire article, though. This is the part I find much more important than mythmaking over the specific location:
That's an exaggeration by a few orders of magnitude! From one of the most prominent U.S. reporters on one of the country's most prominent news programs! Doesn't that raise your eyebrows even slightly?
It does, and to be honest you make a good point to question any media organization with motives and spin. That's an excellent thing to do and I personally have a lot of wariness towards any kind of mainstream corporate media or government funded/approved media. Both have reason and willingness to put spin and try and push their own agenda by controlling the narrative.
Frankly, I enjoy this type of discourse.
But, to the overarching matter at hand, most interactions I've had, or observed from members of your instance have not been as cordial as you've been today. I appreciate you participating in this discussion civilly and without vitriol or malice.
Do you think it's realistic that over time your fellow Hexbears could engage in civil discourse without resorting to name calling and posting giant images of pig anuses?
When you have the time, I'd check out Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman. I'm going from memory a bit, but the basic thesis is:
I think there are also some YouTube summaries out there if (like me) you find it hard to do a lot of long-form reading.
Most already do, they just also have the "post PPB at someone who is being hostile or bigoted" gear. I think as our instances feel each other out a bit more we'll see more of the good stuff and the disagreements or misunderstandings won't be viewed with such a short fuse.
This has to run both ways, though. While your instance is in general more polite than ours, there's still plenty of hostility, it's just not quite as blatant. Think of "Midwest nice" rather than some stereotypical asshole from the Northeast.
You just engaged in a discussion without name calling, malice, or anuses.
The difference is you didn't call us bots, tankies, nazi's, or use ableist or homophobic slurs.
🥺
Even the article you linked says china admits soldiers gunned down over 300 people. I guess calling it the "Avenue of Eternal Peace Massacre" would have been a little confusing. Unless 300+ people being shot in the street isn't a massacre in your opinion.
Did I say no one was killed? Does China?
When Hexbear users challenge U.S. Tiananmen Square propaganda, we're challenging the fable (the author's word) that has been built around the event. Wild, salacious stuff like "tens of thousands of people were ground under tank treads until they were paste and then soldiers hosed them away." As the author notes, parts of that fable are constantly repeated by the very definition of mainstream press despite no basis in reality.
You are not getting accurate information about this event. The only questions are what actually happened and where else these prestige media outlets are wrong. WMDs come to mind for some reason.
This is a complete distortion (either lie or misunderstanding, I'll assume the latter). It says that the government estimates 300 fatalities and that some victims were shot by soldiers. You are assuming that all of these deaths were from "300+ people being shot in the street", but even in this article they mention that soldiers were beaten and burned alive (which factors into the total). This rough "300" figure was rectified a week later in a full report as ~200, with 36 of the casualties being college students.
We know nobody was killed in the square (see confidential cable from U.S. government embassy in Beijing), we know many soldiers were killed and beaten, that soldiers were also gunned down, and that most did not have weapons. So the square was evacuated peacefully (we have video of this) and then a riot broke out outside the square. Why would this be done if the government was intent on "gunning them down" anyways? Terrible comment, try better next time.
I find it telling that a direct quote from the article you linked is "a complete distortion" since I thought I included enough text to give context. We aren't missunderstanding each other so much as we just have vastly different moral prerogatives. Even by your own claim, that revises the number down even more than the article you linked, 200 people died that night. I don't understand how you minimize that so easily.
The quote from the article was:
You characterized this as:
As @robinn2@hexbear.net pointed out, a significant number of Chinese soldiers were also killed (and not killed by gunfire). "Fatalities" includes deaths on both sides, but you (and this is an easy mistake) read this as only referring to civilian deaths.
This sort of precision is important. First, it highlights that this was not simply a one-sided affair; these were not wholly peaceful protesters. Second, the kind of factual slippage you (mistakenly) engaged in is how, over 30 years, an event where 30+ soldiers and 200+ civilians died in a messy confrontation becomes a clear-cut massacre of tens of thousands, where tanks crushed peaceful protesters and [inset whatever other salacious, invented details you've heard with the mythological version of the story].
Note that this last point is not mine, but is from the Columbia Journalism Review article.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Confidential cable from U.S. gov. embassy in Beijing showing US knew there was no firing in the square
Hou Dejian, one of the leaders of the Tiananmen protests, saying he was in the square all night and saw no one killed
Clearance of the Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989
CBS News correspondent: There Was No "Tiananmen Square Massacre"**
** "Constitutively and pathologically unable to simply own up to a past journalistic crime, the propaganda apparatus merely substitutes a new lie for the old one. The official death toll according to the Chinese government is, in fact, a matter of public record: Beijing Municipality has checked and double-checked all the figures from the Martial Law Command, the Public Security Ministry, the Chinese Red Cross, all institutions of higher education, and all major hospitals. These show that 241 people died. They included 23 officers and soldiers from the martial law troops and 218 civilians. The 23 military deaths included 10 from the PLA and 13 from the People’s Armed Police. The 218 civilians (Beijing residents, people from elsewhere, students, and rioters) included 36 students from Beijing universities and 15 people from outside Beijing." [link]
This was not a "massacre" but a riot in which police and PLA soldiers were killed as well as civilians/rioters, as proven by the peaceful evacuation of the square and degeneration of the situation thereof.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/VSR9zgY1QgU
https://piped.video/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Please, link some of these sources.