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Vote blue no matter who!
(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 25 May 2025
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You: The Russians are the cause of all our problems
Not really beating those Americans are propagandized stereotype are you disguy
You misunderstand. Our problem is our woefully uneducated population is inundated with misinformation on how our system works and propaganda to keep them too afraid to learn.
In case my metaphor was too elusive for you, I was referring to Jill Stein. She only shows up as a spoiler candidate every four years, never runs for any other government office, and has a long history of meetings and dinners with Putin.
Bruh 😂 y'all might as well come out like Ben Garrison labeling every single fucking thing and still think you're being subtle.
Yes, we know you meant Jill Stein, you're only the ten thousandth lib to say that one.
Not a lib, and clearly they didn’t understand because their response was all about Russia and not about Stein.
The US turning Russia fascist doesn't make Russia any less fascist, and doesn't negate the fact that Russia is demonstrably flooding the web with propaganda and attempting (and largely succeeding) to influence Western politics
Who's eating up the western propaganda throwing words around like 'fascist'?
Bro, Russia is ruled by a dictator-for-life, has some of the most conservative social norms and laws, including institutionalised homophobia and suppression of the press, and is currently engaged in an expansionist war.
So it is indeed BS. Conservative is the only accurate thing you mentioned. Like all of eastern Europe.
In no way can you seriously label that as fascist unless you're parroting propaganda to demonise Russia.
Unlike Ukraine they have elections, and didn't ban all opposition parties, 11 of them, put union leaders in jail or have openly fascist batallions in their army and celebrate WW2 SS genociders.
On the contrary, all Russian fascists fight for the Russian legion on the Banderist side.
Sure, the citizens of Russia just love Putin so much they voted for him consistently since the 90s. Takes a special kind of gullible to believe that.
https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-wins-rigged-russian-election-with-88-of-the-vote-exit-poll/
And i guess the people convicted for being associated with the LGBT are just paid actors.
https://www.globalequality.org/component/content/article/1-in-the-news/186-the-facts-on-lgbt-rights-in-russia
As for other Eastern European countries also being far right - that doesn't make Russia any more left, does it? "They're not the only far right country" is such bizarre rhetoric. I guess if everyone else is doing it, eh?
I'm aware that the links aren't exactly leftist, but i can digging further on my phone. Literally all the sources I found agree.
EDIT: If you have sources that reliably contradict this, I'll happily accept being wrong. There's certainly room to question what is said about Russia.
You clearly lack knowledge of basic facts.
The 90's had Gorbachov and the traitor/sell out Yeltzin who let the country be leeched by western oligarchs.
Putin was only acting president from 2000 (notice it's a different millennium) and president much later.
And you can go there, check any polls by anyone and they will indeed tell you the people want him in charge.
Takes a special kind of gullible to believe that it's all fake and all those people are lying.
IDC about some garbage slander article a western biased outlet claiming otherwise as usual without any proof.
Or the one literally saying "advancing an American policy..." LOL
"As for other Eastern European countries also being far right - that doesn’t make Russia any more left, does it? “They’re not the only far right country” is such bizarre rhetoric. I guess if everyone else is doing it, eh?"
Your bizarre rethoric is claiming Russia is fascist while there are more right wing, and even far-right countries like ex-ukraine or the Baltics.
Not to mention Poland who have only finally managed to end their LGBT-free zones.
So you have nothing to back up your fascist propaganda claims despite you conveniently ignoring the facts I mention of other countries actually having fascist features and cherrypicking LGBTQ stuff which is also a fail.
Just saying - if the elections are rigged, polls can also be rigged. And again, just because others are bad doesn't make Russia good. That's basic whataboutism.
"What about Ukraine"?
They also suck. Moving on.
What you say is interesting, and thought provoking, but there's not much substance beyond your claims. The only thing you actually corrected me on is when Putin became president. And idk man, but 20 years as president isnt much less dictator-y than 30 years as president.
And if Russia was leeched by US oligarchs - which obviously it was - what makes you think that didn't have an effect on Russian politics?
Also, which facts did I "conveniently ignore"? I directly addressed the fact that far right politics are endemic in Europe. It just doesn’t stop Russia from also being far right.
Also, I'd like you to expand on the "cherry picking LGBT which is a fail". Are you saying this isn't a big deal or something?
"polls can also be rigged" Suuure, every poll even the ones done by opposition organisations or even a ukranian one showing 87% for Putin are rigged.
Listen to yourself.
And it's you with the "claims" I have irrefutable facts. Nothing but substance.
Are you an AI? I challenge you to debunk even one, you will fail again.
"And if Russia was leeched by US oligarchs - which obviously it was - what makes you think that didn’t have an effect on Russian politics?"
What makes you think I said anything like that? The result is obviously Putin, a nationalistic right-wing guy. Not another puppet, and he made life better for most Russians.
You ignored to adress the worse and more right wing states and called the lesser one fascist.
LGBT is one of countless issues, no more no less.
You know who uses the same tactics?
The hasbara trolls saying "let us genocide Palestinians bcs they don't like the gays while we are a perfect democracy and have a pride"
I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of "liberal democracies" to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.
Just to make sure: you do realise that criticism of Russia does not equate to praise for Western democracies?
"I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous."
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don't like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don't know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I'm willing to admit that much or even all I've heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don't think the "Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun" narrative is accurate. However, I don't see any convincing alternatives to that. The "denazification" idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn't seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there's obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I'm just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia's actions.
You sound like a reasonable person and don't resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV's.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn't want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn't have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don't forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I'm saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You've given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, "why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?" And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn't seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine's citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it's harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I'll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here's some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada?
The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the 'no nazis in Ukraine' mantra.
Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
And those efforts kept going leading to the coup.
Always ready to answer questions.
Have a nice day.
Never forget, nothing is a threat to moscovite russia, they have the largest nuclear arsenal, largest amount of land in the world to shelter during a nuclear attack. Measure percentage of russia border with NATO members vs total border of russia before russia invaded Ukraine. it is tiny. Russia did nothing when Finland Sweden joined NATO.
Unlike russia, other countries have genuine security concerns about russia expansionism and nukes.
Don't forget to research which country russian puppet, Viktor Yanukovych.
Don't forget russia has nukes in kalinigard and belarus.
Don't forget to research on all the coup russia tried to carry out inside Ukraine.
Don't forget to research about putin's Wagner group.
Bingo, never forget Putin is ex-KGB/FSB, the master of propaganda. Many people seem to fall easily for russia and US propaganda. This war has nothing to do with massive CSTO, NATO, NAZI , LGBTQ, biolabs and etc. Those are propaganda for sheeps. To make it seem complicated. It is the same strategy, the WMDs excuses US used to invade Iraq. We hate US for doing that, It is the same reason we hate russia for doing the same, unless one is a hypocrite.
Russia have hardly any troops along border with NATO members. Russia is already surrounded with nuclear powers. No nuclear power will nuke a neighbour as the radiation will spread to their own country. Russia have nukes right next to NATO members in kaliningard. Russia made Belarus a nuclear sponge.
The truth is more likely simple and practical, more about getting warm water ports and more lands and imperialism but it hard to sell facist ideas like that to the people. Putin talked about soviet empire during interview with carlson. Russia got the warm water port from Crimea but most of the water supply to crimea comes from Ukraine. This invasion is to secure that water supply and probably even to link up with Transnistria. Any other reason given is just pure propaganda to build support, to demonize the enemy and sell the need for invasion to sheeps. Like the WMDs in iraq.
Also note NATO does not expand it is based on membership, one way to identify russia talking point propaganda is someone using the word "expansion" or "pushing expansion" when talking about bad NATO. In geopolitics expansion usually means invasion. Potential NATO member, apply for membership and are accepted by vote. Before the war there was only minority public support inside ukraine for ukraine joining NATO, it changed after the war. Ukraine even said they won't apply to NATO but russia didn't leave Ukraine lands. It was about the lands not NATO.
Putin : "I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners." http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/21598
The truth isn't in the middle.
The truth is in science.
Things would have gone much more smoothly if you'd just posted this:
https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/
I looked it up myself, and bizarrely, they do seem to like him according to the polls.
Why bizarrely?
It has never been different, the western media doesn't report inconvenient facts that don't fit the narrative of the evil dictator.
People should be more sceptical and research stuff.
It just seems absurd to me that so many people in such a populous country are so uniformly super-conservative. The equivalent in the US, Trump, doesn't even have such a super majority despite amazingly effective propaganda.
Sure, maybe Russian culture is just super conservative to begin with, but that seems odd considering how the USSR was able to even form and still enjoy fond memories among those who lived through it. Though, to be fair, the USSR was far from the most progressive state, and had its own conservative flavour, most notably an intolerance for homosexuality.
Russians credit Putin for taking them out of the absolute nightmare of 90's (somewhat correctly) and for resisting the west (also somewhat correctly). Because you are right, Russians are not stupid sheep, they do know that west is reponsible and having the choice between nationalist like Putin and nazi western puppets like Navalny they chosen the former.
When you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for having the patience to put up with my ignorance.
"It just seems absurd to me that so many people in such a populous country are so uniformly super-conservative. "
I think you might be young and inexperienced in (geo)politics.
Otherwise you would know that people tend to rally around the flag and support strong leaders in times of trouble.
despite not being a fan of their usual politics.
US presidents not sure of getting re-elected can just start a war and their approval goes up astronomically.
In Russia I believe the communist party scores in the high 30%, the biggest opposition.
Not exactly conservative.
I think you are also misinformed about the USSR, they were progressive in many ways.
It had more rights for minorities decades before the west, and many black Americans prefered to live there after being discriminated in their own country.
Also consider the times when talking about LGBTQ rights.
Nowhere in the world did they get treated right despite being officially decriminalised.
Which was the case (for a period) even before Stalin in the USSR, while the US did it in....2003.
Plenty of other aspects, such as women's rights, workers rights were vastly more progressive than anywhere in the west. Swiss women didn’t gain the right to vote until 1971
Again you're focussing on LGBTQ while they were also wrong just like most other countries decades ago is unfair.
Yeah, you're a bit late to the party of telling me that it's all about defending the country. "Young and inexperienced in geopolitics" is also a bit of an assumption and just a character assessment rather than a response to my point. It's a bit hard to look past what is essentially an insult and a dismissal.
Also, you spend a lot of time explaining that the USSR was just like everyone else in their lack of LGBT acceptance. Yes, I know. Conservative. Like I said. And obviously they were ahead in terms of worker's rights. Socialism, yknow? I never stated that the USSR was entirely conservative, just that they had some conservative elements, and used LGBT non-acceptance as an example of that conservatism.
This is starting to devolve into nothing more than a fight, and it's stressing me out, so I'd rather not continue and just accept that you were right about their acceptance of Putin.
Lmao. They have a different democracy than yours, that's not automatically a dictatorship in the way you mean it. Inasmuch as a liberal system can be "democratic", the US has no leg to stand on calling others dictatorships. Your presidents might as well come out with a big hand up their ass on a podium branded with your banks' names.
I'm not American, nor was that my logic. Please don't resort to strawmen as dumb as "different form of democracy = dictatorship".