670
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 03 Jun 2025
670 points (97.5% liked)
World News
47511 readers
1333 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
as someone with Israeli friends, I always figured this to be the case. they bemoan having to think about bomb shelters because of the occasional rocket that gets fired over into israel. they legitimately believe that Muslim countries hate them, and Muslims in general want to kill them. they live in the Old testament of the Bible, and anything that happens to Gaza is the will of God.
This is plausible, but not entirely without a reason. I stopped taking sides in this mess long ago.
Yeah to be fair this is true, and I bet a lot of the Palestinians would wish for all the Israelis to leave
Wouldn’t you? I don’t think anyone would be okay with being relegated to less than 20% of their land by foreign invaders
Jews and Muslims have had many extensive periods of peace living together (including in Palestine before the state of Israel). The story of Islamic-Jewish hostilities is actually fairly recent and shorter than you'd expect.
Antisemitism as we know it today is mostly a European export to the Middle East.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938
Counter-argument: 7oct attacks wasn't a defense operation. Before you tell me that it was a revenge or "didn't happen in a vacuum", then, again, this is why I refuse to take a clear side as both sides have done terrible things. I'd understand them hitting settlers, but fucking tourists enjoying a concert? Naah. Let them fight it out, I have problems of my own (I'm from East Europe with looming russian invasion)
You'd be wrong though. Hamas targeted soldiers not tourists. You are blaming the deaths resulting from the Hannibal Directive on Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-hannibal-protocol-during-oct-7-fighting-report/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/yoav-gallant-admits-to-authorising-hannibal-directive-during-october-7-attack-7663931
Putting Hannibal Directive aside. Let's say if Russian troops occupied your country for a number of years or decades and eventually hosted a concert on your former hometown, then some resistance group ended up killing some tourists at the concert during the crossfire. Would you be both-siding it?
Let's assume you would view both sides: the invaders and the resistance as bad, would that justify a genocide?
To be fair, the Palestinians had not choice in their occupying force and would have realised any group taking their land and displacing them.
“they legitimately believe that Muslim countries hate them, and Muslims in general want to kill them”
Do you have any experience with the press in their neighboring countries? There are absolutely some sources pushing this narrative in the opinion sections from time to time. I used to read The Daily Star (Lebanon) to follow Israeli news from a non-Israeli perspective and would see this in that paper a few times a year.
By no means am I suggesting that the billions of Muslims uniformly want to kill Israelis but the percentage that does isn’t zero.
Yet Jews had their Golden Age in Spain during Muslim rule before the Reconquista.
This hate is easily explained by reading what Zionist leaders have said themselves:
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
IMO A kid from Palestine put it best in my first IR class “Why did my grandparents have to lose their home and everything in it because of European anti-semitism?”
On the other hand, Israel is an existential threat to every nation around it. If there was an aggressive theocratic ethnostate expansionist threatening your border, wouldn't you hate them?
Israel doesn't just want Palestine. They want the West Bank, Gaza, and all or large chunks of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. Expelling the Gazans from Gaza won't solve this. The Israelis want to do the following:
Expel the Gazans just over the border into shanty towns in neighboring countries.
Some displaced people in those areas will inevitably sneak back over the border to carry out revenge attacks against the people that stole their homes.
When (2) happens, use that as a justification to invade neighboring countries and seize additional land.
Israel has been slowly expanding its borders this way for decades. They seize an area of land, declare it a military buffer zone, but then let their civilians move into the buffer zone. They use their own population as human shields, putting them in danger of attacks by displaced Arabs. Then when this happens, they use this as an excuse to expand their borders further.
If you had a psychopathic country for a neighbor, that intended to slowly gobble up your own nation bit by bit, wouldn't you want them all dead?
Israel isn’t a theocratic state. Im not sure why you would even suggest that it was as their PM is not a religious figure.
Pedantry is the last refuge of the ignorant.
They are not wrong though, there are plenty of Muslims in the surrounding states that believe Jewish people are evil and should be exterminated, not because of anything happening in the real world but because they are being told that they'll have to fight and kill them during the end times anyway.
What a stupid comment.
Jew lived in yemen - Iraq - Palestine - Egypt - Morocco - Iran for hundred of years. Saying Arab hate jew is propaganda.
The hate is for Israeli and those who supported them through the year while they genocide - destroy villages- cites- farms- didnt allow people to go back home.. in fact they kick them out of their own home and allowing an American zionist Jew to just take the land.
They build shelter because they know they are a colony and sooner or later people of the land will attempt to get them back. Not because “Arab hate them”
I don't even know what to say to you, but your interpretation of what I wrote is so over the top that I can just assume that you're trolling. I especially liked the bit where you turned some Muslims into all Arabs, as if they are one and the same and all the same.
It's also starting to get really obvious isn't it? I mean, you really have to be provincial. I'm actually thinking of moving to the country and trying bigotry for a bit myself. You know, before we've missed it completely. It's just that there's a really good shawarma place round the corner from us here.
Jews lived in these countries not as equal citizens with full rights, but as second class citizens who had to endure centuries of oppression. There's a reason why the moment Israel formed, all these countries committed some of the worst pogroms in history and expelled their Jewish populations. Around 1 million Jews in the muslim had their property, communities, and citizenship stripped from them for the crime of being Jewish... even though they had no connection to Israel whatsoever. Since Israel was the only place to take to them in, that's where they ended up going.
Also it's inaccurate to say "Arabs hate Jews" because Arab is an ethnicity. There are a lot of Arab Jews and being Arab is not tied to any ideology. It's more accurate to say "mulsims hate Jews" because are tied to an ideology, islam, and the islamic scriptures are very explicit that Jews are evil and should be either killed or treated as second class citizens... hence how the Jews in the countries above were living in such unjust conditions in the countries above prior to the creation of Israel.
Yet Jews had their Golden Age in Spain under Muslim rule and returned to Jerusalem after a 500 year Roman exile after the Muslim conquest of the Levant.
They were lured to Israel but with the exception of Egypt they weren’t expelled. Iraq went as far as prohibiting Jews from leaving and the Mossad did false flag attacks to encourage them to leave secretly.
"lived"
plenty of non-Muslims too
And Palestine is being ethnically cleansed and genocided by the same apocalyptic Jewish and Christian thinking. Religious apocalypticism aside, in Palestine there is a clear victim and aggressor. You don't even have to take my words for it. Take Israel's first prime minister's words:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Israel is an existential threat to its neighbors. The hate isn't irrational. It's perfectly reasonable.
Can you elucidate?
The tl;dr is that an antichrist-like figure, the Dajjal, will appear during the end times, leading to a battle between his followers and the righteous. The more extreme interpretations claim that all or almost all Jews will be on the Dajjal's side. Example:
Other groups mentioned as mostly falling to the Dajjal, depending who you ask, are singers and musicians (because music is sinful I'm assuming), Bedouins, women, Turks and probably many others. It's just one of these things that lends itself to being instrumentalized.
It's always some obscure quote from the hadith about some homicidal tree. Most Muslims, like the other Abrahamic faithful, are just trying to stop trans people from having abortions.
Jews are not central to the Dajjal (antichrist) story. It is only mentioned that his army of followers will have tens of thousands of Jews in it coming from the east (could be China, or anywhere between china and the Levant). The foretold events point to a post-"Israel" world.
The "tree" hadith is relevant. And the trees are not magical or "homicidal". The hadith points to the high-tech military/surveillance apparatus turning on "Israel" at some point (with a single exception). The hadith just drew the picture in a way the people of the time could comprehend.
Between the aftermath of the "State of Israel" experiment, and the supposed appearance of the antichrist, it wouldn't be surprising if many Jews, especially religious non-Zionist ones, sought refuge and lived among Muslims again, like they always did throughout history. Given the raising extreme vitriol against all Jews, in the west and elsewhere, in part due to the actions of the world Zionist-capitalist cabal, I would say this could be more likely to happen than not. This of course assumes that things will shake out in a way where Muslims, or some of them at least, will actually rule themselves, and the colonially-manufactured client mini-states of today will also be no more.
Maybe that cabal will switch sides at some point and go to China. And that's how they will become a part of the antichrist movement. Or maybe not. The world could change many time over between the end of "Israel" and the supposed appearance of the antichrist. We don't know.
My point was that it was a "hadith" quote, as opposed to being from the Quran. Muslims frequently ignore hadith or give them such a wide interpretation as to give them negligible relevance. To simply infer the active beliefs of real Muslim people, or any religious group, from literal interpretations of cherry picked passages of secondary religious texts is ignorant nonsense. (Especially in 2025 when can just ask them directly over a round of Fortnite.)
Even when considering the antichrist stories (which appear in the New Testament), core principles in the Quran state that "believing" Jews, Christians and Muslims (and maybe even unlabelled monotheists) will be rewarded by God (2:62), and warns Muslims against trying to judge or assume "belief" in others (49:12, 4:94). This message also appears throughout the teachings of Jesus (e.g. Matthew 7:1-5), who Muslims consider to be a prophet of God.
Even if we carefully and collectively decide to determine a group as "bad". We can, and arguably should, do that without recourse to religious prophecy. For example, if we collectively decide (e.g. UN, ICJ, ICC) that the group is carrying out an ethnic cleansing or genocide, based on real world evidence, interpreting a hadith prophecy to support that doesn't add weight in any objective sense.
Your argument seems to be that the Hadith is totally irrelevant. Hamas and the person you're replying to seem to think otherwise. Maybe it isn't irrelevant just because it isn't in the Quran and has a passage about shouty trees in it? Religions are hardly consistent, especially at the fringes.
The hadith is secondary commentary. It is supposed to be considered (in its historic and underlying Quranic context), rather than followed. As a third party, what can we conclude from reading it in isolation without any real world evidence or reference to the actual Muslim people giving it that consideration? Nothing beyond speculation.
Hamas isn't real Muslims?
Uh, no. They live in the living memory of the Six-Day War. I'm not going to defend the behavior of the current Israeli government, but in no way are they just living out the biases the Old Testament when they think neighboring Arab states are antagonistic to them. They remember 1967, and if you think that all neighboring Arab states have done a 180 from where they were then, you're very much wrong.
1967 is notably two decades into the ethnonationalist colonial project that displaced many Palestinians from their homes.
You picked a bad start date for Arab/Jewish trouble in Palestine. You also appear to ignore how the other Arab states screwed over the Palestinians to keep them desperate.
But I didn't comment to debate this. I commented to disabuse the notion that Israel is using the Iron Age to think what they think. Neither are the Arabs.
But they are stuck in the Iron Age. They believe God gave them Palestine.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
[emphasis mine]
The 1967 war was preemptive. Israel started it. Then again, they also started the 1948 war in November 1947 months before Arab armies got involved.
https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/a-50-year-occupation-israels-six-day-war-started-with-a-lie/