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Ukraine blows up five jets ‘deep within Russian territory’
(news.yahoo.com)
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this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
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I'm no fan of Russia
But at the same time I'm no fan of nuclear war either.
The escalation of the war has to stop or else we will all feel the fallout of this war.
I'm pretty much a dove through and through with one exception: you must be able to fight to defend the sovereignty of your country.
It is Russia that started the tension, then the conflict, and then the war. Appeasing a megalomaniac and hoping it will make them more measured is delusional.
Then as a peace loving person ... why support continued fighting?
Fighting Russia only leads to more war and towards what outcome? Completely defeat, embarrass and throw Russia up against a wall they can't back out of? They would be forced into a corner where they would eventually use a nuclear option. If they are given the choice between defeat or suicide ... they might take themselves and millions of people with them.
I'm all in support of Ukrainian sovereignty and fighting for one's country ... but if it means risking the lives of millions of people around the world ... what sense does that make?
If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?
"If we are capable of financing billions towards violent solutions ... why not instead finance billions towards a peaceful resolution?"
Do you want us to spend billions on an ad campaign asking Russia to please stop invading a country? Uh I don't know if you are history deaf or not but Russia will not stop, unless it is stopped.
Something we Americans should really stick to is the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line. Russia is a terrorist state, and they have proven time and time again they cannot be reasoned with.
Pacifism is when I get to kick people and they don't do anything about it.
...MDMA in Moscow's water supply something along that line?
Russia's goal is genocide. If you train were to give up, there will be millions of people put to death and sent to concentration camps in Siberia to die. So they really don't have any other option. We have seen time and time again Russia commit crimes against humanity including to this day the continued operation of the gulag system.
Stop financing the war .... if everyone is spending billions on a war machine to just fight -> then there will be endless fighting
if you stop the financing and instead spend a few million on peaceful resolution, negotiation and just simply talking, the fighting will stop and there will be resolutions ... it won't be a simple fix, there will be complications, disputes and wins and losses by both sides (everyone can argue the details about it in whatever way they want) .. but the end result will be an end to the fighting.
Otherwise, if everyone keeps wanting to spend billions on fighting ... the fighting will never end.
So you want Ukraine to just capitulate? Just to satisfy your "peace at any cost" desires? Because Russia sure isn't going to.
So the answer is to fight Russia at all cost and completely defeat Russia? So the result would be sending billions more into the Ukrainian war machine (where global armaments companies can make a huge profit) ... Ukraine fights its way to the Russians and completely defeats them ... then what? ... it would force the Russians to use nuclear options ... and no nuclear armed nation would tolerate that and now we have nuclear weapons being exchanged .. and do you think everyone would just quietly and logically agree to launch one nuclear weapon for every one the other side sends?
The whole scenario of fighting at all cost just leads to one thing ... more war ... and more war leads to nuclear fallout
Disagree with me all you want ... I have no love for Russia ... I have no love for war ... I support Ukrainian independence ... there are political options that support these views ... I also value my life, your life and the lives of millions of people all over the world to say that I would rather see peaceful options to this conflict than to see a never ending fight that is slowly leading us all to nuclear war.
You need to understand some history, and the bigger picture.
Ukraine isn't Putin's endgame. He wants to rebuild the USSR, which means after taking Ukraine he's coming for the Baltics and parts of Poland and Romania, and we now know his playbook: cause political instability in the area, replace the locals with Russians, then claim they need to be "liberated" from "Western Nazis"; that's what he's already done several times, and is also why Moldova need to be seriously concerned about Transnistria (I'm sure they already are).
The history you need to understand is that of appeasement. It was tried with Hitler. But it didn't stop his lust for more and more, and the millions of deaths from WWI and WWII were the results. Giving Ukraine to Russia increases the chance of nuclear war; it doesn't decrease it.
So Putin must be stopped in Ukraine. And he must be pushed completely out of Ukraine including Crimea because otherwise he'll just regroup and try again later. Which he might still do anyway, but he'll have had to deal with the fallout of the huge cost of the Ukraine invasion for zero benefit and the Russian reputation and economy in tatters. But appeasement doesn't work and doesn't stop wars.
We don't need to completely defeat Russia. We just need to push them out of Ukraine and hold them back. What Russians do in their own country is their business. And when they're ready to rejoin the civilised world we should be equally ready to welcome them back. We also need to strengthen our entire eastern flank: not aggressively sabre-rattling, just enough to make Putin think twice about launching an invasion or starting any funny business there.
There's a similar problem on the horizon with China, and Taiwan isn't Xi's endgame.
Main sources: Vlad Vexler, Peter Zeihan, China Uncensored.
Not disagreeing with the general point but please note that China Uncensored is Falun Gong-affiliated and should really not trusted in anything they say about China. (I say this as someone who is very critical of China)
And Peter Zeihan... I don't know that guy just rubs me the wrong way. Also lots of right wing associations afaik.
Vlad Vexler is cool tho.
No, the president of Ukraine has asked Putin repeatedly to stop the war and withdraw. Tucson has refused and has ignored any offers to do so. He in fact gave a speech last year claiming that Ukraine is not a real country. He has authored a study to resurrect the Soviet Union by reconquering every country that was part of the USSR, including Poland and East Germany.
If Ukrainian were capitulate today, we would see Russian soldiers invading Poland and Germany. That's their goal. In fact their goal is to stretch Russia all the way to the Atlantic coast.
There were Nazi appeasers back in the day as well.
You are no better.
I definitely have no love for Nazis ... either ones in the past or the ones who exist now ... but Nazi Germany didn't have nuclear weapons back then. I would rather look for a peaceful resolution to any situation with any entity, fascist or not, if they were pointing a loaded shotgun at my face.
If you appease the Nazis/Russians, all you tell them is that doing what they did was okay, and that they can do it again and again.
Invade, treaty, break treaty and invade again. Rinse and repeat.
Sometimes they have to be told no and be told very loudly that "you've gone too far". Just like the playground bullies they are. This is that moment.
You, and people like you, were part of the problem when the Nazis were invading their neighbors. You're part of the problem now.
Shame on you.
Russia isn't going to risk the world launching a dozen nukes at them just so they can launch one at Ukraine.
As much as that makes sense and everyone probably agrees .... then why are western nations hedging their bets that the other side won't launch a missile, even as they escalate the fighting.
That is Russian Roulette on a global level if you ask me.
The problem is really alternatives. Give into Russias demands and they will do the same again soon. It will also send a message to China for example and make war more likely in the long run.
What kind of peace agreement would you see possible?
Btw if you're interested on the topic of the risk of nuclear war related to Ukraine there's a good video by Lonerbox in which he also explains the logic of the side you're arguing with here in more detail.
Apart from the other points that have been raised: basically every recent report about Ukrainian troops has gotten a bit in it along the lines of "they're exhausted and have taken heavy losses, but are in good spirits and willing to fight on".
Especially if you read what individual soldiers are saying, I get the feeling that this war would not end, even if support to Ukraine where to vanish completely (good luck convincing Poland, the Baltics and Nordics). You'd just get Afghanistan, but the invaders are openly genocidal and don't give a fuck about civilians at the best of times.
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