1424
Wagner boss Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia
(www.bbc.co.uk)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
1424 points (98.6% liked)
World News
32287 readers
772 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
The return of Ukraine in its entirety to the russian nation for one.
That was never a stated (or likely even an unstated) goal of Russia.
Yes it was stated many times. The broadcasts should still be around if you want to check.
Should take you no time at all to source your claim, then.
Sure, would you like russian state media or a 3rd party?
Either
Did you get a reply? I'm also curious.
I did not.
There is now a reply. I don't want to shock you, so make sure you're sitting down: in no way does the source support the view that Russia sought:
Here is the quote, to save you scrolling up:
A lying liberal, what a shock
Let's see whatever you got
Sorry I replied to the wrong comment, my bad.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220308032650/http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67903 Parts to note:
“I would like to emphasise once again that our men and officers are fighting in Ukraine for Russia, for a peaceful life for the citizens of Donbass, and for the denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, so that no anti-Russia, which the West has been creating for years right on our border, can threaten us, including with nuclear weapons, as has recently become the case.”
That's what you claimed as one of Russia's war goals. You can see the excerpt you quoted isn't anything like that, right?
I'm not even trying to do some sick own or anything. You do see the difference between the stated aims and the propaganda circulating about "Russia wants to conquer the whole of Ukraine," don't you?
Why bother lying if you're going to debunk your own lie?
why should I give one shit about what russians goals where at the start of the war, the reality is its a meat grinder and the location of said meat grinder requires ukraine to move through it to advance, russia are setting the terms of this conflict and are in control.
Why have you gave one shit indeed, its not like that was the whole reason to invade or anything.
According to the stated russian objectives they have already lost this conflict, time will tell if Ukraine also looses.
I dont care about either sides goals because im not naive enough to buy into military propoganda, which the goals are.
During a war nothing either side says matters, you fatally misunderstand what happens to the media when a war breaks out, it just becomes another instrument of war, and as such nothing can be trusted but the satalite footage of where the war is and boots on the ground reports of people there, everything else is bullshit.
Ok please enlighten me on the winning condition for russia to end this conflict in their favour. No need for "military propoganda" just how does this end in your mind?
with a peace agreement
Ok, so what does that entail? I don't think you can just jump on TV and call peace. Ukraine has stated many times that they will not agree to any peace deal without the boarders going back to 2014, russia has stated that will not fly.
Even if you assume its a full on meat grinder for both sides, how does russia win in this situation? They claimed this military operation was to de-milliteraze Ukraine, the opposite has happened. They claimed this military operation was to put a stop to NATO expansion, the opposite has happened. They claimed this military operation was to protect the Donbas people, now they are the group who has suffered the largest casualties in this conflict. They claimed this military operation was to ensure the russian people prosperity and security, the opposite has happened.
what it entails are the borders freezing and everyone getting bored of sending 17 year olds through minefields
east ukraine will never be part of ukraine again, do you really think there is a going back now over a million people have died?
That is my point, there is no going back. Even if Ukraine before this was on shaky ground as a nation they are now determined to fight on and on and on. russia also has no credibility as shown today, and this has been stated many times by Ukraine that any treaty with russia is worth less then the paper it is printed on.
So I ask again, how does russia get anyone to show up and sign anything? How do they force peace?
Ukraine are forced to the table when the west stops sending them money, which I wager will be within a year.
That at least is an answer, and while I don't think it will happen (the collective west is doing to well from this) I do appreciate an honest attempt.
Most of the collective west is currently undergoing a thinly veiled reccession and electing more and more unstable forms of government, like the neo-nazi gov of italy, the shitshow that is UK politics (which is doing worse economically than russia, a country at war) and the clown parade that is the american govs complete inability to do anything for its own people.
There is already talk of pulling aid from Ukraine in many EU states like Austria and the US is starting to pivot towards Taiwan and has been calling this recent push 'Ukraines last chance', which they are admitting is failing.
The paymasters are calling time.
Yeah, I don't see it what with the re armament of most of these western countries. There does not seem to be a lack of last gen equipment to send.
there is no re-armament, none of the western ecomonies are geared for war, only the american military is and they are done sharing there surplus.
all that the west had to give was what it could afford to give away from its reserves without crippling there own defence sectors, russia has a active war ecomony, the west does not.
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/ukraine-and-the-eclipse-of-pacifism/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2023/01/13/commentary/japan-commentary/japan-rearmament/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-02/europe-s-peace-dividend-is-over-why-rearmament-is-not-that-easy
There is no war in ba sing se
cltr+f'd 'aid' on your first article, no results (other than it hitting other words with aid in it)
that article is literally just about the military industrial complex being spun up in western europe instead of shit like housing lmao, nowhere does it suggest that ukraine will be receiving any of that, only that the money will be going to 'defence', this is not a war ecomony and I suspect you dont know what that is.
furthermore I suspect most of that money will be spent replenishing all of the things they just gave away, you realize
Yes, they are in support of the western world rearming. Nothing to do with aid.
the western world will be rearming, just not ukraine
Yes, that is what is happening if the budgets and contracts are to be believed.