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this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2023
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Showerthoughts
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There recently was a discussion on lemmy where several US citizens (one of them allegedly an engineer…) tried to explain to me that metric might be „more precise“ (? 😂) but the imperial system more practical, because „everybody knows what a foot is“. When I asked them to add feet to miles I got shouted at (in CAPS) that noone (ever) does that. 🤷♀️
Lol, that sounds very much “as a black man”
I’ll tell you, most of us in the states would love a total switch to metric. We use it where is matters most, but we also have an aging population raised on lead has fumes that think anything they don’t know is “communism” or “wholeness” or whatever else the propaganda right spews. Those are the assholes that pretty much stop progress on anything.
I’m big into 3D printing, actually got into the same argument with another 3D printing guy…. And I’m like, literally EVERYTHING we do is in metric. The whole damn hobby is metric.
I hate humanity
You mean the „engineer“? Well, what can I say, he was insisting his professor at uni taught him „a true engineer can work with every system“.
I mean yes, but the difference is one engineer is just happily pushing around decimals, the other one goes pale when you ask what 1/5th of a gallon in cubic inches is…
Hehe, yea, I was poking fun at the “engineer”. There was a congressman a while ago that got caught posting right wing stuff on twitter from an alt account “as a black man” (dude was white of course”
Sometimes I like to think about the logistical challenges with a switch to metric. The one that always gives me pause is highway signs. Thinking about the monumental task of replacing every speed sign, distance sign, and mile marker across the country in any timely period makes my head hurt.
It could certainly be done, and is probably easier than I think with all the state DoTs working independently on it especially over time. We have a lot of road with a lot of signs.
I honestly hate that argument. "it would cost so much to change all those signs" is just negative talk for "it would employee a shit ton of people, create a lot of jobs, and be a major infrastructure project that could help our economy.". Honestly, the economic benefit of major infrastructure works is rarely talked about as much as it should be. Mainly, I think, because the people it benefits are the ones actually doing the work. And that's scary to a certain segment of society that would like very much that not to be the case.
I don't think it's a valid argument against metric, just a thought experiment to consider about the time needed to implement. Converting would be a slow process, but I agree it could be an economic boost as swapping things is a largely a manual process
Meant to mention in my first comment, I haven't met many other people who like to randomly imagine the ways major structural changes would take place. Lol.
I like to pick a huge project. Like, say, single payer healthcare, or the nationalization of an industry, and then imagine the individual steps that would need to be taken to get there. Doesn't necessarily have to be a project I'd support, I just have fun imagining the ways it would need to happen.
That's a good point, but we don't have to even fully replace them. I admit I don't know the name of the technology but I see many street signs or construction signs that have basically a printed metal sticker slapped over the old information.
I think the bigger one is the construction industry.
2"x4" studs. 4'x8' plywood. 16" O.C.
Changing to 44x95, 1219x2438, 406 O.C doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We could switch over to the metric equivalents (like 1250x1250 or 600 O.C.), but that would mean switching out machinery and would break a lot of standards.
I say that Metric is like color vision. You can see things in whole new and easier ways. People in USC can't understand what others see and insist things are just fine the way they are. Thus the "no one ever does that", "why would you need to know that", "who cares", etc.
It is true that no one ever does that though. That doesn't mean its not a problem, but I've never seen anyone do it. If you need to do something like that and you have a brain, you use metric. Just because its flawed doesn't mean imperial should be completely abolished though. What needs to stop is people thinking imperial is better than metric somehow. Aside from that, its just a weird flawed measurement system.
We don't use imperial in the US, we use US customary. Some units have different sizes in imperial. For example, a US pint is 16oz and an imperial pint is 20oz.
That's how they get you. They make the beer smaller.
I'll tell you something I do as a woodworker a lot that metric isn't great for: divide by powers of two, three or four. I've got some boards milled up 3/4" thick. I'm going to join them with a bridle joint, that means cutting the middle third out of one and the outer two thirds from the other. So each of the remaining "tongues" are each 1/4" thick. 3/4" is approximately 20mm. That's a nice metric number, a multiple of 10. Let's cut that same bridle joint in 20mm stock. What's a third of 20mm? Can you come point to 6.6666mm on my metric tape measure here?
Don't pretend base ten doesn't do stupid things too.
Yes: For woodworkers, it's identical to 6.5mm, accurately eyeballed at between 6 and 5mm. Don't pretend you're a machinist. Does your tape measure even have a vernier scale. Does it make satisfying clicks when measuring. If you have a slip instead of interference fit just dump one piece in water for a second it'll be fine.
To be more precise, it should be rounded as 6.7 cm, accurately eyeballed at between 6.6 cm and 6.7 cm.
I saw that too, and many of them claimed they learn both Metric and Imperial British systems and convert between them all the time. So this stood out now:
I mean, it's true. Ask an American to visualize an ounce of anything other than drugs, and they probably won't be able to. Ask how many ounces in a gallon, and they'll Google it. Even cups aren't well understood. We can eyeball a mile on the interstate, or tell you how tall someone is, or lift a box and guess it's weight to within 5 pounds. But honestly, that's about it. We just aren't really taught to visualize our weights and measures, it's why newscasters keep saying shit like "8 Olympic swimming pools!" Or "the size of three football fields" because we just don't have a coherent system ingrained in us. That's also, I think, why we're so against metrification. Because weights and measures feel hard, because we're basically only semi-literate in our own mother tongue, so a "foreign language" feels like it'd be this huge undertaking.
This really isn't an American thing - it's just human, we can't really visualize dimensions accurately unless we have a good reference. Some may measure the Olympic swimming pool in feet others in meters, but the effect is the same.
Really? ... Am I super weird then? Because I can visualize volume and distance really well. I just assumed that was being, like, literate in both systems of measure.
I mean, if you're converting feet to miles, you're doing something weird.
How many 39 ft rails do you need to build a 100 mile railroad?
Why on Earth would I ever do that?
If I was a rail engineer, I would have a chart (or a calculator if its past the year 1980)
Can you divide 1000 by 39 quickly and easily?
It’s called an example. Want another one? How many laps do you need to run on a 400 m track to run a 10k? How many people can you serve with your 2.5 kg steak if everybody needs to get a 250 g steak? Need more?
They are right, no one ever does that. Their reasoning for the imperial system being practical is stupid though. The reason it can be practical is that its useful to have a unit the size of a foot sometimes. Metric is better in general, but there are aspects of the imperial system I would miss if I switched entirely. I just use imperial in casual conversation and metric for anything important.
edit: To be clear I'm not saying conversion from feet to miles isn't a problem because no one does that, its the opposite. No one does it because its a problem.
I wish decimeter was used more commonly. It kinda takes up the place of the imperial foot.
That's the great thing about being a metric user in the US. It's not the common system here, and the only people who really use it consistently are those who do so for work, and those who just enjoy it the same way one might enjoy learning a new language. It's sort of a grassroots thing here. And because it's not the standard system, there's no one here telling us what measures are socially acceptable to use and which aren't. Use the decimeter. Hell, if you like it, use it in Europe, you might get a weird look, but it won't be like asking for the distance to the deli in leagues. They'll still understand. In the US, use the decimeter if you want. I've used the metric system exclusively for so long, started as a sort of personal test, that I tend to think in metric now. I look at something and think "30cm" more than I think "a foot," occasionally I'll think "bout a 1/3 of a meter."
Have fun with it. Also, hot tip. If you ever struggle with temps, it's percentage of boiling. 0% of boiling is frozen. 100% of boiling is boiling. 20% of boiling is nice.
Sigh, here we go again…
Yes YOU don’t do that. Because you can’t.
Everybody in Europe can and does so. There’s nothing arcane or mysterious about the metric system. I have no issues telling you how many litres of water go into a 50 x 50 x 200 cm aquarium, or a pool with a 3.5 m diameter and 80 cm height. Good luck doing that with your inches and feet and quarts and gallons.
There’s nothing „more useful“ about either a foot or a meter. Either you know how much it is or you don’t. Everybody knows what a meter is. For me it’s a large step. My arm from elbow to fingertips is 50 cm. Or 1/2 m… A sheet of paper is 30 cm (actually it’s 297 mm, but that’s another story), and so are rulers. Which, btw, is very close to a „foot“.
Your foot btw most likely is not as long as a „foot“, and a small woman’s size is easily 20% off. And no, that’s not „in the ballpark“.
I won't argue that, its a flawed measurement system. My goal isn't to show you why imperial is so much better than metric, because its obviously not. That doesn't mean imperial is never useful though.
They can both do the same job, but its more convenient to have smaller units depending on what you're measuring. I find the size of a foot to be convenient for measuring things in casual situations where accuracy and precision aren't priorities.
We don't literally measure it with our feet, that's just what its called.
See, that’s what apparently many people don’t understand: with metric you don’t have „larger or smaller units“. You have one unit and you scale it to your needs. It’s not like we have „the meter“ and „the centimeter“ and have no clue what’s in between. There’s absolutely nothing more convenient about having multiple units for the same physical property.
Again: There’s nothing more or less precise about metric or imperial. You have a mental image of a „foot“ the same way I have a mental image of a ruler or a sheet of paper, i.e. 30 cm.
I don’t really know what a litre is. I know what a beer bottle looks like, or a milk carton, the same way you know what a quart of milk looks like. Pour a quart on the floor and ask someone how much that is, they probably don’t know.
Oh, I definitely had other people tell me imperial is „more human“ because a foot is the size of your foot and an inch is the size of the tip of your thumb.
That's the same thing, the units are just proportional.
I know, its just easier to say a foot than 30 centimeters. That's why I use it in casual conversation, and not in anything important.
That's not the part I'm saying is convenient.
They can both be used to measure things precisely, but metric is more convenient in those situations usually. If I need to accurately measure something, I would use metric because the advantages of imperial are probably not applicable. If I'm just estimating and it doesn't matter much, I'll probably use imperial because I won't have to do any conversions with that number, or anything else imperial struggles with.
Those people are wrong.
Sure, if you put it like that. But I do have the feeling many US people treat imperial units like completely different things and have absolutely no mental concept of a relation between them, especially between length and volume.
That’s just a completely arbitrary thing. It’s easier to answer „how tall are you“ with „one eighty“ instead of „five foot eleven“ 🤷♀️
It doesn’t seem to be an issue for „metric people“ at all, nobody is missing the foot in Europe.
Because if it were convenient we would have that, the same way we have a ton, or a pound (500 g), which are in common use. You have the decimeter (10 cm), but nobody uses it. There used to be a unit called „Elle“, which is 50 cm, and it’s just the name for the stick, nobody says „give me 3 Ellen of canvas“.
I still fail to see those advantages.
Yes, because you’re used doing so, not because it’s more practical or convenient. Metric people do estimate things as well.
There is certainly no shortage of Americans that don't understand the metric system, or hate it for nonsensical reasons. I was once asked to measure a piece of wood and I said it in centimeters because it was exactly x cm long, and they said something to the effect of "not that commie shit". They seriously wanted to work with fractions of an inch instead of touching that evil foreign system.
Its arbitrary if its not something you care about. Also that's not a great example for height. Usually its just two syllables. 5' 4", 5' 5" etc. You only have to say foot if you are an exact number of feet tall. That way you don't tell anyone "I'm 6". Most people's height in cm will not be a multiple of ten, so it will be longer than 180's three syllables.
It's just an inconvenience, it's not worth learning imperial to save a little time. Especially when no one around you would understand what you're talking about.
The units are usually sized intuitively for everyday use. Just look at Fahrenheit vs Celsius. The only thing I use Fahrenheit for is the weather. 0 is too cold, 100 is too hot. That's subjective of course, but it seems more intuitive to me than Celsius. The boiling point of water doesn't matter to me when I'm deciding what clothes to wear for the weather. Celsius works fine but it makes less sense for that application in my opinion.
Or, Europeans only use metric for those things because they don't know imperial. I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, if you don't know imperial then its not worth learning. The advantages are small enough that its not worth the effort, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Of course you don't, I'm not saying Celsius is incomprehensible.
I'm not arguing Fahrenheit is better for that, use Celsius.
I disagree, reference points are extremely important. That's one of the reasons Celsius is so useful. Maybe its a weird example but one thing I use it for is brewing temperatures for coffee. I know the closer it is to 100, the closer it is to boiling. That's very useful information to me. I could do the same thing with Fahrenheit but the number is so weird that I don't even remember what it is.
It also affects how small the units are which is pretty important. Farenheit has smaller units, so it can be more precise without having to use decimals. If I tell someone what temperature it is outside, I will be more exact than you most of the time.
Me just being used to it isn't a good argument. I barely remember many aspects of the imperial system because I've replaced it with metric. The aspects of imperial I still use were chosen intentionally.
I could also say that you're "just used to it". I could say the reason you're so resistant to any advantages of imperial is just because you learned how to do things with metric even when it wasn't optimal. The reason I'm not saying that, is because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are here to have a real conversation. Do me the same favor.
I have said multiple times at this point that its not worth learning imperial for whatever advantages it may have. Its obviously not good to create new units for every application. But that's not what I said is it? I said there are aspects of imperial I would miss if I switched entirely.
Show me the indicator for Celsius that makes it a proper size for that application.
I guess that's how you would see it if you just ignore all of my arguments and assume metric is better at everything all the time. Do you think I'm doing this because I'm patriotic? You think I started this argument where I openly admit imperial's faults, just to defend America's pride? You have ignored nearly all of my arguments because you are unable to accept the fact that metric isn't better at literally everything. Nothing is perfect, and I'm not sucking america's dick by telling you that. The one thing I got wrong was assuming you wanted a real conversation.
Sometimes I think there was a missed opportunity in defining an easy conversion between inches and cm. It is 2.54 cm to 1". Why couldn't it simply be 2.5? Then a 2x4 from the building supplier could simply be renamed a 5x10. 5.8x11.6 doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well.
My understanding is that the metre was inspired by nautical measures? So the distance from pole to equator along sea level is supposedly 10000 km. But that's pretty approximate, and there is a more rigorous definition that involves the wavelength of a certain type of radiation. But that number is quite arbitrary-sounding. Couldn't they have chosen it to line up with the imperial system at some level to aid migration? Anyway, that train has left the station and I'll stop ranting now…
At the time when the metric system was created, imperial units weren't standardized at all, so if centimeters lined up with one definition of inch, they wouldn't line up with the many other definitions anyway.
Point taken. Reading up on it on wikipedia, I love the the legal definition from 1814, wherein one inch = "three grains of sound ripe barley being taken out the middle of the ear, well dried, and laid end to end in a row".
As an American, I understand that metric is better for a lot of things. It also would cost a metric fuck ton (ha!) of money to switch over, and it just really isn't a priority when things work just fine for us here. It's not like we are constantly running into problems that would be easier to solve by using metric, and the people in the few professions that do run into those problems frequently just use metric.
The original idea behind imperial units is actually quite nice. They used 12 inches in a foot because you could divide it in so many ways without using decimals. You can take 1/2 of it, 1/3, 1/4, and 1/6 without ever needing decimals. It's great for mental math with small numbers. That obviously is no longer the most important thing anymore, as we all have calculators with us at all times, and we deal with much bigger numbers on average than they used 200 years ago.
We all still use 360° in a circle for this exact reason. It can be divided up in 22 different ways (excluding 1 and 360 as factors).
You can measure 1/2, 1/3, or 1/4 of a meter, why wouldn’t you? Also, seriously, those common fractions aren’t that hard in decimal. Everybody knows that 125 g is 1/8 kg.
That’s not the issue. The issue is that it’s not consistent between imperial units, you have a zoo of different subdivisions between units. You have 12 inches in a foot, three foot in a yard etc pp.
The issue is it gets really unwieldy in multiplication, 1 cubic ft is how many cubic inches… 1728, how convenient.
Tell me how much is 1/6 cubic ft in inches? How many cups are that? There goes your mental math.
(It is also a common misconception that imperial is „duodecimal“. It’s not. It’s counting to 12 in decimal. If you had a proper duodecimal system, „12“ * „12“ would make 100 not 144.)
And you also say 180°, 45°, 720°. Not 1/2, 1/8, 2.
Ok, I have heard this argument before.
If you go down this rabbit hole, you will eventually realize that it is our base 10 number system that is weak in terms of divisibility. If we counted in base 12, the metric system would follow suit and you'd have your convenient fractions.
In my "perfect world" musings, however, I jump back and forth between base 12 and some power of 2 base. The latter would not be very naturally divisible but would make basic arithmetic much easier. There is a reason computers prefer binary.
The other point I'd like to raise is that even in the imperial system, you are not spared having to deal with awkward fractions, as you will realize when you walk into a hardware store looking for that 5/64" screw. Apparently, fractions are not a deal breaker in this case, so perhaps we should refer to a third of a metre as simply that: 1/3m?