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this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Hey @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com, just so you know, this tool is most likely very illegal to use in the USA. Something that your users should be aware of. I don't really have the energy to go into it now, but I'll post what I told my users in the programming.dev discord:
Note that the script I posted is not transmitting the images to the AI Horde.
Also keep in mind this tool is fully automated and catches a lot of false positives (due to the nature of the scan, it couldn't be otherwise). So one could argue it's a generic filtering operation, not an explicit knowledge of CSAM hosting. But IANAL of course.
This is unlike cloudflare or other services which compare with known CSAM.
EDIT: That is to mean, if you use this tool to forward these images to the govt, they are going to come after you for spamming them with garbage
Cloudflare still has false positives, the NCMEC does not care if they get false positives. If you read some of those links I provided it wouldn't be considered a generic filtering operation, from how I'm reading it at least. I wouldn't take the chance, especially not with running the software on your own hardware in your own house, split from the server.
I think you're not in the US? So it's probably different for your jurisdiction. Just want to make it clear that in the US, from what i've read up on, this would be considered against the law. You are running software to filter for CSAM, so you are obligated to report it. Up to 1 year jail time for not doing so.
Nothing that can't be fixed by adding a quarantine option instead of deleting the offending picture. Hopefully someone can upload a patch for that?
One can easily hook this script to forward to whoever is needed, but I think they might be a bit annoyed after you send them a couple hundred thousand false positives without any csam.
The problem is you aren't warning people that deleting CSAM without following your applicable laws can potentially get people that use your tool thrown in jail. You went ahead and built the tool without detailing any of the applicable laws around it. Cloudflare explicitly calls out that in their documentation because it's very important. I really like the stuff you put out, but this is not the way to do it. I know lots of people on Lemmy hate CF and any sort of large company, but running this stuff yourself without understanding the law is sure to get someone in trouble.
I don't even know why you think I was recommending for your system to forward the reports to the authorities. I didn't sleep very much last night, so I must have glazed over it, but I see nowhere where I said that.
Honestly, I thinking you're grossly overstating the legal danger a random small lemmy sysadmin is going to get into for running an automated tool like this.
In any case, you've made your point, people can now make their own decisions on whether it's better to pretend nothing is wrong on their instance, or if they want at least this sort of blanket cleanup. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do.
You may not have meant it, but you strongly implied something of the sort. But since this is not what you're suggesting I'm curious to hear what your optimal approach to those problem would be here.
Optimal approach is to use the existing systems that are used by massive corporations to solve this problem already. I know everyone on lemmy hates that, but this isn't something to mess around with. The reason this is optimal is because NCMEC provides the hashes only to these companies. You're not going to be able to get the hashes (this is a good thing... imagine some child abuser getting access to these hashes and then using them to evade detection). So if you can't get these hashes (and you shouldn't want them either) then you should use a service that has them. It is by far the best way to filter and has been proven time and time again to be successful.
The easiest is CloudFlare's, and yes, you will have to use them as your DNS which I also understand a vast majority of admins hate. But there are other options as well
In that article, it actually points out that a solution called Safer that uses machine learning and image recognition has very flawed results and is incredibly biased. So if these massive platforms can't get this kind of image recognition right then it's probably best to not waste money and time on it. The article even points out that for smaller platforms it's not worth it.
I look forward to see your success with that approach. Godspeed
I don’t know why you say that like it’s not already successful.
Have you already registered for this services and using them on your lemmy? If so the success is something displayed in time.
They have been used on millions of websites already. It’s pretty clear that it works. It doesn’t need to be used on lemmy to prove it works. And my application is currently in review so no I haven’t used it. But that really doesn’t matter. Especially if you’re comparing it to a tool written by one person that has been out for a few days.
The situation Has dramatically changed in the the past year. I am telling you but you seem to be in denial. Likewise currently you're unprotected. As such my previous statement applies: good luck!
What situation? You haven’t told me anything about anything changing in the last year.
Huh? What previous statement? You’re not protected. You just think you are! You literally claimed that your product has lots of false positives. It most definitely has false negatives too.
The situation is that anyone can ai generate any amount of novel csam now.
…. That’s not what CSAM is. It’s literally in the name. abuse. CSAM requires abuse of a child. Just like pictures of your kids in the bath isn’t illegal, AI generated content is going to need to be provably linked to abuse in order to meet the definition. I seriously doubt it ever will be. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire situation, overreacted so much so that you might have gotten people in serious legal trouble, and are now trying to justify it because you think that the current solutions aren’t going to protect against CSAM.
I literally linked a software that does what yours does, but is already used, already proven to work, and also has the benefit of being the backup to the hash based mechanism instead of being the primary mode of filtering.
Dude, I was trying to be nice how I approached you earlier, but you clearly are unwilling to accept that you have made a massive mistake here, not only by not reading up on the laws, but not even fundamentally understanding the problem space. This is not good software engineering.
Omg! If someones starts posting photorealistic generated csam to your instance, is this what you're going to tells to your userbase when you refuse to delete it? Are you for real? In that case, good fucking luck!
removing inappropriate sexual content is completely different than CSAM... a point you seem to be trying INCREDIBLY hard to not understand. Dude, just quit. Please please stop with this nonsense. You are unable to let it go. Every one of us builds bad software at some point. For you this is it. Just let it go, go build something else.
Sheesh.
Lol, I really pity your users if that's what you're like talking to other admins.
Look, maybe I can make it very plain for you to finally get. You will not be able to recognise it's not ai generated and your "proper solution" won't catch it. Your users will freak the fuck out.
Use your brain. I'm out
it's clear from your comments here and in matrix that you think you're always right and you clearly can't take criticism. Good luck in the future dude. You're going to need it.
Honestly dude, you do whatever you want. I didn’t want to have this conversation in the first place because I knew you would argue. You wouldn’t build the software in the first place if you thought that the other solutions worked so clearly you hadn’t done your research, including into applicable laws. At this point you’re just fighting to justify having built a pointless tool that can get you in legal trouble. I guarantee that if you talked to a lawyer they would tell you to stop using your own software for this, but clearly you don’t care about that. You built something and you want to justify its existence, so you keep arguing for it and against proven legal solutions.
Ugh, what a mess. Thought about this for a while today and three thoughts started circulating in my head:
Hire an actual lawyer and get firm legal advice on this issue. I think this would fall to the admins, not the devs. Maybe an admin who wanted could volunteer to contact a lawyer? We could do a gofundme for one-time consultation legal fees.
Stop using pictrs completely and instead use links to a third party such as Imgur or whatever. They’re in this business and I’m sure already have dealt with it and have a solution. Yes it sucks that Imgur (or whatever third party) could delete our legitimate images at any time, but IMHO it’s worth it to avoid this headache. At any rate it offloads the liability from an admin. Of course, IANAL and this is a question we would want to ask a lawyer about.
Needing a GPU increases the expenses for an admin significantly. It will start to not be worth it for quite a few to keep their instance running.
Thanks for bringing up this point. This is obviously a nuanced issue that is going to need a well-thought-out solution.
The GPU doesn't have to be high-end, and can run on someone's PC
Depending on the country, those laws may be different. Here is a story of a guy who ran a TOR exit node in Australia who would have been protected as a company (law was later changed).
https://lowendbox.com/blog/man-found-guilty-of-child-porn-because-he-ran-a-tor-exit-node-the-story-of-william-weber/
the ridiculous part of it is, as I understand it, if you completely ignore your website and essentially never know that you're hosting CSAM then you cannot be held liable for it. But then, someone's probably literally gonna come hunt you down to tell you in person (FBI) lol. So probably best to not ignore it.