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stethoscope theory
(quokk.au)
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this post was submitted on 08 Dec 2025
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Lefty Memes
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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, discussion and agitprop/stuff that's better fit for a poster than a meme go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme. Please post agitprop here)
0.5 [Provisional Rule] Use alt text or image descriptions to allow greater accessibility
(Please take a look at our wiki page for the guidelines on how to actually write alternative text!)
We require alternative text (from now referred to as "alt text") to be added to all posts/comments containing media, such as images, animated GIFs, videos, audio files, and custom emojis.
EDIT: For files you share in the comments, a simple summary should be enough if they’re too complex.
We are committed to social equity and to reducing barriers of entry, including (digital) communication and culture. It takes each of us only a few moments to make a whole world of content (more) accessible to a bunch of folks.
When alt text is absent, a reminder will be issued. If you don't add the missing alt text within 48 hours, the post will be removed. No hard feelings.
0.5.1 Style tip about abbreviations and short forms
When writing stuff like "lol" and "iirc", it's a good idea to try and replace those with their all caps counterpart
- ofc => OFC
- af = AF
- ok => OK
- lol => LOL
- bc => BC
- bs => BS
- iirc => IIRC
- cia => CIA
- nato => Nato (you don't spell it when talking, right?)
- usa => USA
- prc => PRC
- etc.
Why? Because otherwise (AFAIK), screen readers will try to read them out as actually words instead of spelling them
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't irrationally idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Highly authoritarian leftists
There is actually technically no such thing as an authoritarian leftist. Leftism is defined as more egalitarian/less hierarchical. Tankies are right wingers that have been pushed into the same spaces as leftists because they are against Western nationalism.
Authoritarian anti-capitalist then
Also, because setting up a "Left Wing" country or society doesn't mean people with a Right Wing outlook on life cease to exist. They have to candy coat their beliefs in the language of Leftism but that doesn't make it leftism.
AES would suggest otherwise
But then "authoritarian" is just code for "people in charge who I don't like". It's how you get liberals who gleefully repost "Trump is a Nazi" but recoil at "Abolish ICE" or "Boycott Israel".
Communists are authoritarian when they gain power because capitalists hate them. Capitalists are libertarians when they're in charge because they pad each other's wallets
You've fallen into the trap. Political stances aren't on a spectrum, they're multi dimensional
Some leftists believe in anarchy, in a lack of hard boundaries and a more organic cultural resistance to bad actors. Some believe in rigid structure, in the rules creating equity and equality.
Tankies believe in an authoritarian, top down force that will impress ideology onto the masses.
All lefties believe in equity and/or equality. That's the common thread. Tankies are crazy high on the authoritarian vs anarchy spectrum, but they genuinely think that road will lead to an equitable society
You're right about politicial ideas being more than 1 dimensional, but I think of the left-right spectrum as one specific measurement.
Then what is it measuring? Right and left are directions, they're labels that are extremely contextual
I genuinely don't know which of many axis you might be referring to. I think you're probably gesturing to something like equal/inequal distribution of power, but you could also mean progressive vs regressive, or even liberal vs fascist
Left and Right are specifically about how people view power and authority. Nothing else. Left is no kings, Right is kings. Over time that got fleshed out and more nuanced but the point remains. Anarchists are the farthest Left you can go and Absolute Monarchs are the farthest Right you can go.
Eh... That's debatable
That's an insane paradigm. That's putting so many things on one axis
You have to try to understand others from where they are. The right is generally bad, but they also believe in people... Which has merit. The left is generally good, except when their plans are bat shit insane
Personally, I believe anarcho-communism is the ideal situation. It's also bat shit insane. I don't know if I could live in such a society, I'm certain most people today couldn't
You have to see the nuance and see where people agree and differ. Every successful political movement is evangelical. I refuse to believe most people don't want to live in a better world, they're just generally really fucking stupid
But they have values... Some are good and some are bad. Some are inherent and some are learned.
Good things are good, bad things are bad. We have enough food to overfeed everyone... People shouldn't starve. You can believe in that fact, I think nearly everyone believes this, while also being a too dumb to understand how to solve that contradiction
There's no objectively best system. The world is a messy place. The best system is the one that works best at the moment
It puts very little on one axis. No kings or Kings. Originally that was literally a question of how people wanted the French revolution to go.
The French revolution wasn't that simple. Read up on Honoré Gabriel Riqueti, and how he pushed the assignant and destroyed the French economy
It's never that simple. Life, and how humanity organizes itself, is always far more complicated
The revolution was not simple but the seating chart was very simple.
Neat way to reduce a complicated situation to something simple. No deeper lessons to be learned
Thinking takes effort. It's easy to spout platitudes
Then do some thinking. You're clearly not processing what's being said. A whole bunch of different people with different beliefs that believed in No Kings all literally sat on the Left side of the room. A whole bunch of people who believed in kings and tradition sat on the Right side of the room. Literally. Physically sat there on different sides of the room. How complicated is that?
Some guy came out of nowhere and invented a new currency. One based on ideas that couldn't work
The nobles on one side said "we have to maintain the status quo, despite that being impossible". The nobles on the other side said "we have to accept our financial losses and find a new way forward"
There were no other groups in the room. They were all nobility
And the whole thing went on until the starving peasants broke in and brought out the guillotines
It was not simple. It never is. What is simple is the sanitized version fed to the masses to placate them
"Tankie" is just a pejorative for those who support socialism in the real world. It's a caricature, the "tankie" is someone that believes everything levied against socialist states by the west is both true and good. In reality, many groups and figures like the Black Panther Party, Nelson Mandela, etc are supportive of socialist states, and are thus the same "tankies" demonized by anti-communists.
I don't care what you call it, I'm not supporting fascist state capitalism.
Economies where public ownwership is the principle aspect of the economy and where the working classes are in control of the state are neither fascist nor capitalist.
So you're saying that the working class Chinese citizens have direct, official power over the means of production and can use that to further the political goals of the working class with no repercussions?
Yes, the CPC is a working class party with a hair over 100 million members, and the system of democracy in China is distributed into local, regional, and the central government.
Oh, the government is separated into smaller local and regional governments and less than 10% of all Chinese citizens (there are 1.4 billion) are members of the CCP? Cool fun facts, I always love to learn, but you did not answer my question.
Does the government of the People's Republic of China support and protect the legal right of the working class to control the means of production?
Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working class is in control of the state. These are the basic requirements for socialism, at least in the Marxist understanding. I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to, a petite bourgeois cooperative quasi-socialism? If the working class directing the economy, as I already explained is the case in China, isn't "controlling the means of production," what exactly is your vision here? Because it certainly isn't standard.
So... no protections, no real policy, no solid connection between the working class and power except for this notion that the government has the interests of the working class at heart. Is that right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_by_net_worth
Read through the above list and tell me these people must work for a living, that they could not live solely off of their assets. Why are these 607 people allowed to hoard such massive wealth and own so much if the working class controls the means of production and the economy? How is that good for anyone?
I've explained how the working class is in control of the state, you don't have to trust the government, you can trust the people themselves. The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:
China does have billionaires, yes. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principle aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:
The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn't been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.
Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.
In the People's Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn't steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing's faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized:
Deng's plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.
China's rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a "love/hate" relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.
Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC's gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.
In doing this, China has presented itself to the global south as an alternative to the unequal exchange the global north does with the global south, which is accelerating the development of the global south. China is taking a more indirect method of undermining global imperialism than, say, the USSR, but its been remarkably effective at uplifting the global working classes, especially in China but also in the global south.
Put another way:
The English language is violence, I hotwired it
I got a hold of the master's tools and got dialed in
I'm downwind with the drop
I'm Deng Xiaoping, smoking oil in the wok
-billy woods
For further reading:
Qiao Collective's Introductory Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Study Guide
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics ProleWiki page
Socialist Market Economy ProleWiki Page
People's Republic of China ProleWiki Page
My "Read Theory, Darn It!" Introductory Marxist-Leninist Reading Guide
Has China Turned to Capitalism? Reflections on the Transition from Capitalism to Socialism by Domenico Losurdo
China Has Billionaires by Roderic Day
The Long Game and its Contradictions
Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism by Vladimir Lenin
Super-Imperialism: The Origins and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance by Michael Hudson
Marxism is a Science by Deng Xiaoping
Regarding the Construction of Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Xi Jinping
Oh my God. Holy fuck I gotta hand it to you for this amount of effort. It's gonna take me a while to sort through all this, gimme a minute.
The secret is that about half of it is something I've already written about before, elsewhere. I talk a lot about Marxism-Leninism and socialist countries, and people often repeat the same questions or talking points, so at this point I have almost always already spoken on a topic before. That being said, the other 50% was original, haha.
Take your time, there's no rush. We aren't in a competition.
I think Lemmy is training me not to start arguments because all y'all lemmings don't just yell into the void, you link back to further reading and now if I want to stand my ground I'm gonna have to do like an hour(s) of research. Welp, maybe if I didn't want to do research on a complex topic I shouldn't have started talking about Chinese economic policy... Sigh
I still think you're dead wrong for the moment but the order and civility with which you're presenting your claims when faced with my admittedly hostile tone in the previous comments is something I admire. I'll get back to you after I've done some research.
We Marxists have a saying: no investigation, no right to speak. Given the immense hostility to Marxism and to socialist countries in the English speaking world and internet, those of us that come to Marxism generally only do so through reading, studying, organizing, and facing material reality head-on and finding that the dominant narrative doesn't line up.
I used to share skepticism for China like you do now, and it took a lot of reading and conversation with comrades for me to come around to being pro-China. The kicker there is that you'll find those supportive of socialism, Marxism, etc have mountains of sources ready to go, because most of us have been through that same process, while most of those opposed to socialism and opposed to China have done so through cultural osmosis.
In general, as long as you maintain an open mind and try to speak on what you've investigated previously, you'll rarely be outright wrong.
For what it's worth, me being more civil is more of a personal choice than the norm, I've been doing this for years and have found good success by doing so. Others will also have their own collection of sources, but may not be so civil.
And Cowbee is legit the goat. One of my favorite posters for sure. Thanks for what you do. 🫡
Thank you comrade! 🫡
If the working class were in control of the state they wouldn't do Tankie shit or get called Tankies.
The working classes are in control of the state in socialist countries. They do "tankie shit" like overthrowing fascists and expropriating capital from capitalists, doing land reform from landlords, etc, which is both authoritarian towards the capitalists, landlords, and fascists while being liberating for the working classes.
"ackchually"
I'm giving my POV as a Marxist that disagrees with being labled "right wing" and having Marxism boiled down to "opposing western nationalism."
I'd say Marxist-Leninists are the ones getting called Tankie way more than everyday Marxists.
MLs are the "everyday Marxists," globally. The number of MLs outweighs the rest. Further, MLMs, Trots, and other types get called tankie all the same.