When someone claims to be a leftist but starts attacking socialism with literal works of fiction, and calls those that point that out anti-communist pejoratives like "tankie," I doubt their sincerity. The meme is true in this instance, in the sense that I as a communist don't really see what's "left" about anti-communism.
You literally assumed that implication. And in any case, no one would seriously claim that every single person who the Red Army killed was a Nazi. That would have been literally impossible given that it was the bloodiest war in world history.
I didn't say no nazis were killed. However given the context of the thread, it was implied by multiple people that the victims of Stalin's repression deserved it. And when I say repression, I am not talking about WWII but the collective deportations of ethnic minorities and the like.
Chechen and Ingush deportations. Volga German deportations. Deportations of Koreans within the Soviet Union. The anti-cosmopolitan campagne. Various crimes against humanity during the great purge. That is only part of the list.
I am not talking about WWII but the collective deportations of ethnic minorities and the like.
Chechen and Ingush deportations. Volga German deportations.
Those ethnic relocations (not deportations) were entirely about WWII. Many of them were on the side of the Nazis. They were done to move them physically away from Nazi influence and away from the war theater. Each was moved together as a group to preserve their ethnic relationships. The USSR could have dispersed them as a diaspora or expelled them, were ethnic cleansing their goal. These were drastic measures to be sure, but they were done because of the existential threat of the Nazi terror and not for any other reason.
The anti-cosmopolitan campagne.
That wasn’t an ethic minority issue. Unless you want to argue that is was antisemitic, which would be silly given how many in high positions of the Party and the government were Jewish.
Various crimes against humanity during the great purge.
That wasn’t an ethnic minority issue, either. That was a counterinsurgency against bourgeois counterrevolution. It was to preserve the socialist gains they’d won a generation before. A (long) excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds: Anticommunism & Wonderland
Here’s a snippet:
The pure socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
The pure socialists had a vision of a new society that would create and be created by new people, a society so transformed in its fundaments as to leave little opportunity for wrongful acts, corruption, and criminal abuses of state power. There would be no bureaucracy or self-interested coteries, no ruthless conflicts or hurtful decisions. When the reality proves different and more difficult, some on the Left proceed to condemn the real thing and announce that they “feel betrayed” by this or that revolution.
The pure socialists see socialism as an ideal that was tarnished by communist venality, duplicity, and power cravings. The pure socialists oppose the Soviet model but offer little evidence to demonstrate that other paths could have been taken, that other models of socialism — not created from one’s imagination but developed through actual historical experience — could have taken hold and worked better. Was an open, pluralistic, democratic socialism actually possible at this historic juncture? The historical evidence would suggest it was not. As the political philosopher Carl Shames argued:
How do [the left critics] know that the fundamental problem was the “nature” of the ruling [revolutionary] parties rather than, say, the global concentration of capital that is destroying all independent economies and putting an end to national sovereignty everywhere? And to the extent that it was, where did this “nature” come from? Was this “nature” disembodied, disconnected from the fabric of the society itself, from the social relations impacting on it? … Thousands of examples could be found in which the centralization of power was a necessary choice in securing and protecting socialist relations. In my observation [of existing communist societies], the positive of “socialism” and the negative of “bureaucracy, authoritarianism and tyranny” interpenetrated in virtually every sphere of life.
The pure socialists regularly blame the Left itself for every defeat it suffers. Their second-guessing is endless. So we hear that revolutionary struggles fail because their leaders wait too long or act too soon, are too timid or too impulsive, too stubborn or too easily swayed. We hear that revolutionary leaders are compromising or adventuristic, bureaucratic or opportunistic, rigidly organized or insufficiently organized, undemocratic or failing to provide strong leadership. But always the leaders fail because they do not put their trust in the “direct actions” of the workers, who apparently would withstand and overcome every adversity if only given the kind of leadership available from the left critic’s own groupuscule. Unfortunately, the critics seem unable to apply their own leadership genius to producing a successful revolutionary movement in their own country.
Tony Febbo questioned this blame-the-leadership syndrome of the pure socialists:
It occurs to me that when people as smart, different, dedicated and heroic as Lenin, Mao, Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Ho Chi Minh and Robert Mugabe — and the millions of heroic people who followed and fought with them — all end up more or less in the same place, then something bigger is at work than who made what decision at what meeting. Or even what size houses they went home to after the meeting. …
These leaders weren’t in a vacuum. They were in a whirlwind. And the suction, the force, the power that was twirling them around has spun and left this globe mangled for more than 900 years. And to blame this or that theory or this or that leader is a simple-minded substitute for the kind of analysis that Marxists [should make].
To be sure, the pure socialists are not entirely without specific agendas for building the revolution. After the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua, an ultra-left group in that country called for direct worker ownership of the factories. The armed workers would take control of production without benefit of managers, state planners, bureaucrats, or a formal military. While undeniably appealing, this worker syndicalism denies the necessities of state power. Under such an arrangement, the Nicaraguan revolution would not have lasted two months against the U.S.-sponsored counterrevolution that savaged the country. It would have been unable to mobilize enough resources to field an army, take security measures, or build and coordinate economic programs and human services on a national scale.
For a people’s revolution to survive, it must seize state power and use it to (a) break the stranglehold exercised by the owning class over the society’s institutions and resources, and (b) withstand the reactionary counterattack that is sure to come. The internal and external dangers a revolution faces necessitate a centralized state power that is not particularly to anyone’s liking, not in Soviet Russia in 1917, nor in Sandinista Nicaragua in 1980.
Engels offers an apposite account of an uprising in Spain in 1872 in which anarchists seized power in municipalities across the country. At first, the situation looked promising. The king had abdicated and the bourgeois government could muster but a few thousand ill-trained troops. Yet this ragtag force prevailed because it faced a thoroughly parochialized rebellion. “Each town proclaimed itself as a sovereign canton and set up a revolutionary committee (junta);” Engels writes. “[E]ach town acted on its own, declaring that the important thing was not cooperation with other towns but separation from them, thus precluding any possibility of a combined attack [against bourgeois forces].” It was “the fragmentation and isolation of the revolutionary forces which enabled the government troops to smash one revolt after the other.”
Decentralized parochial autonomy is the graveyard of insurgency — which may be one reason why there has never been a successful anarcho-syndicalist revolution. Ideally, it would be a fine thing to have only local, self-directed, worker participation, with minimal bureaucracy, police, and military. This probably would be the development of socialism, were socialism ever allowed to develop unhindered by counterrevolutionary subversion and attack.
One might recall how, in 1918-20, fourteen capitalist nations, including the United States, invaded Soviet Russia in a bloody but unsuccessful attempt to overthrow the revolutionary Bolshevik government. The years of foreign invasion and civil war did much to intensify the Bolsheviks’ siege psychology with its commitment to lockstep party unity and a repressive security apparatus.
The Chechen and Ingush deportations occured in 1946, year after WW2 ended. Holy shit. You relativizing a deportation into a cold region with a lack of resources for survival that killed 1/4 and 1/3 of the Chechen and Ingush populations is bordering on the relativization I usually get from neonazis about the Holocaust.
And there was another wave in 1946. Also it was a deportation. Deportation doesn't mean you get removed from your nation. It means you get removed from your homeland which could be a region, a state or a nation. Also they werent given a choice. And 1/3 of Ingush dying as a result of deportation still counts as genocide.
Alright, if the admins and mods are gonna put up and defend your antics here, that's up to them. But if I find such answers that can be read as defenses of Stalin's crimes against humanity on feddit, you, well anyone who does it will get a ban. Not gonna put up with this any longer.
When OP criticizes "Mein Kampf" for it's ridiculously demonizing claims against this group of people by saying that these "Victims of Jews" mentioned in the book were warmongering imperialists, then it doesn't mean that OP is concealing true victims made by Jews.
Sure, by giving a work of fiction as evidence, and calling us "tankies" for providing evidence of that fact along with actual historical texts like Russian Justice. When you wilfully replicate Red Scare propaganda even in the face of evidence to the contrary, you are doing the work of anti-communists, hence why any personal feelings you may have towards leftism are secondary to your willful participation in demonizing socialism.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn was an anti-semitic Nazi sympathizer, and was arrested as such. His fiction is based on the folklore of the gulag system, and archival evidence and historical texts paint a much clearer picture of the soviet prison system. He's essentially Yeonmi Park but for the USSR.
From an excellent thread going over his many ideological failings:
In his 2003 book, Two Hundred Years Together, he wrote that “from 20 ministers in the first Soviet government one was Russian, one Georgian, one Armenian and 17 Jews”. In reality, there were 15 Commissars in the first Soviet government, not 20: 11 Russians, 2 Ukrainians, 1 Pole, and only 1 Jew. He stated: “I had to bury many comrades at the front, but not once did I have to bury a Jew”. He also stated that according to his personal experience, Jews had a much easier life in the Gulag camps that he was interned in.
According to the Northwestern University historian Yohanan Petrovsky-Shtern: Solzhenitsyn used unreliable and manipulated figures and ignored both evidence unfavorable to his own point of view and numerous publications of reputable authors in Jewish history. He claimed that Jews promoted alcoholism among the peasantry, flooded the retail trade with contraband, and "strangled" the Russian merchant class in Moscow. He called Jews non-producing people ("непроизводительный народ") who refused to engage in factory labor. He said they were averse to agriculture and unwilling to till the land either in Russia, in Argentina, or in Palestine, and he blamed the Jews' own behavior for pogroms. He also claimed that Jews used Kabbalah to tempt Russians into heresy, seduced Russians with rationalism and fashion, provoked sectarianism and weakened the financial system, committed murders on the orders of qahal authorities, and exerted undue influence on the prerevolutionary government. Petrovsky-Shtern concludes that, "200 Years Together is destined to take a place of honor in the canon of russophone antisemitica."
His ex-wife outright called it fictional, he was a known liar and conspiracy theorist, and archival evidence of the soviet prison system contradicts his personal accounts. Do you agree with him about his anti-semitic conspiracy theories, or do you think that he's a selectively honest person with a reliable account of socialism, but completely opposite adherance to the truth otherwise? I'm not sure how much more evidence you need beyond knowing that one anti-semitic Nazi-sympathizer's personal account, whose own wife at the time of writing claimed is fictional, is more trustworthy than historical evidence.
Again, his claims contradict archival evidence, he is a known liar, and has benefited massively from spinning these tall tales, on top of his wife at the time of writing explaining that it's fiction. Are you looking for personal admission of guilt? You won't find it, just like you won't find it from Yeonmi Park. Instead, you find evidence that contradicts his personal account, of which he only supports with his personal, unreliable testemony.
Why exactly do you trust the word alone of an anti-semitic Nazi sympathizer?
When someone claims to be a leftist but starts attacking socialism with literal works of fiction, and calls those that point that out anti-communist pejoratives like "tankie," I doubt their sincerity. The meme is true in this instance, in the sense that I as a communist don't really see what's "left" about anti-communism.
I started by saying that not all victims of communism were Nazis.
Nobody ever said that they‘re all Nazis, not even the meme.
Also, you started by citing fiction to make a point using whataboutism.
You are not a sincere person.
Akshually...
Idk if you're genuinely illiterate or what but the comment you've posted here does not say "all" anywhere
You literally implied in that thread that all victims of Stalin's repression were nazis. Now you are backpedalling.
You literally assumed that implication. And in any case, no one would seriously claim that every single person who the Red Army killed was a Nazi. That would have been literally impossible given that it was the bloodiest war in world history.
Deeply unserious pedantry.
I didn't say no nazis were killed. However given the context of the thread, it was implied by multiple people that the victims of Stalin's repression deserved it. And when I say repression, I am not talking about WWII but the collective deportations of ethnic minorities and the like.
What deportation of ethnic minorities “and the like”?
Are you for real?
🤣 https://feddit.org/post/23394368
You still haven’t answered my question.
Also some of the people in the link you posted answer your question.
Posting links to NATOpedia isn’t an answer.
You are seriously linking to a propaganda site run by a suspected PatSoc? Also TheGrayzone is not very credible. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-grayzone/
Are you seriously linking to Media Bias/Fact Check? Previously. Previously.
It's more reliable than the crap sources you tend to link to.
Chechen and Ingush deportations. Volga German deportations. Deportations of Koreans within the Soviet Union. The anti-cosmopolitan campagne. Various crimes against humanity during the great purge. That is only part of the list.
Those ethnic relocations (not deportations) were entirely about WWII. Many of them were on the side of the Nazis. They were done to move them physically away from Nazi influence and away from the war theater. Each was moved together as a group to preserve their ethnic relationships. The USSR could have dispersed them as a diaspora or expelled them, were ethnic cleansing their goal. These were drastic measures to be sure, but they were done because of the existential threat of the Nazi terror and not for any other reason.
That wasn’t an ethic minority issue. Unless you want to argue that is was antisemitic, which would be silly given how many in high positions of the Party and the government were Jewish.
That wasn’t an ethnic minority issue, either. That was a counterinsurgency against bourgeois counterrevolution. It was to preserve the socialist gains they’d won a generation before. A (long) excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds: Anticommunism & Wonderland
Here’s a snippet:
The Chechen and Ingush deportations occured in 1946, year after WW2 ended. Holy shit. You relativizing a deportation into a cold region with a lack of resources for survival that killed 1/4 and 1/3 of the Chechen and Ingush populations is bordering on the relativization I usually get from neonazis about the Holocaust.
It was in Feb. & Mar. of 1944, and it still wasn’t a “deportation,” no matter how many times you repeat it. They were not deported from the USSR.
And there was another wave in 1946. Also it was a deportation. Deportation doesn't mean you get removed from your nation. It means you get removed from your homeland which could be a region, a state or a nation. Also they werent given a choice. And 1/3 of Ingush dying as a result of deportation still counts as genocide.
So that's a yes to the illiteracy lol, not surprising
Alright, if the admins and mods are gonna put up and defend your antics here, that's up to them. But if I find such answers that can be read as defenses of Stalin's crimes against humanity on feddit, you, well anyone who does it will get a ban. Not gonna put up with this any longer.
More like crimes against inhumanity
Cry harder halfwit, Stalin did more good for humanity than any dozen US presidents combined, not that that's a particularly high bar lol
Actually what? You stalked another user on another meme post about another topic to make no point at all. Are you a bit dim?
@Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml - what's your defense?
Stalin killed a shitload of nazis, no defense is necessary I'm 100% right
OPs meme conceals all the suffering of the other victims.
There are also victims of Jews.
When OP criticizes "Mein Kampf" for it's ridiculously demonizing claims against this group of people by saying that these "Victims of Jews" mentioned in the book were warmongering imperialists, then it doesn't mean that OP is concealing true victims made by Jews.
Sure, by giving a work of fiction as evidence, and calling us "tankies" for providing evidence of that fact along with actual historical texts like Russian Justice. When you wilfully replicate Red Scare propaganda even in the face of evidence to the contrary, you are doing the work of anti-communists, hence why any personal feelings you may have towards leftism are secondary to your willful participation in demonizing socialism.
What sources are there that the book is fictional, other than his ex-wife?
Alexander Solzhenitsyn was an anti-semitic Nazi sympathizer, and was arrested as such. His fiction is based on the folklore of the gulag system, and archival evidence and historical texts paint a much clearer picture of the soviet prison system. He's essentially Yeonmi Park but for the USSR.
Here's a real quote:
>The German army could have liberated the Soviet Union from Communism but Hit1er was stupid and did not use this weapon.
From an excellent thread going over his many ideological failings:
I asked for sources that the Gulag book is fiction.
His ex-wife outright called it fictional, he was a known liar and conspiracy theorist, and archival evidence of the soviet prison system contradicts his personal accounts. Do you agree with him about his anti-semitic conspiracy theories, or do you think that he's a selectively honest person with a reliable account of socialism, but completely opposite adherance to the truth otherwise? I'm not sure how much more evidence you need beyond knowing that one anti-semitic Nazi-sympathizer's personal account, whose own wife at the time of writing claimed is fictional, is more trustworthy than historical evidence.
Again, is there any source other than his ex-wife? I didn't deal with his opinion of Jews.
Again, his claims contradict archival evidence, he is a known liar, and has benefited massively from spinning these tall tales, on top of his wife at the time of writing explaining that it's fiction. Are you looking for personal admission of guilt? You won't find it, just like you won't find it from Yeonmi Park. Instead, you find evidence that contradicts his personal account, of which he only supports with his personal, unreliable testemony.
Why exactly do you trust the word alone of an anti-semitic Nazi sympathizer?
Lying sack of shit