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this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2026
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Communists do support communist ideals, though. Socialist states have brought dramatic improvements, such as doubling life expectancy in Russia and China, 99.9% literacy rates, democratization of the economy, massive improvements to healthcare and education, low homeless rates, poverty alleviation, and more. I don't "worship" states, I support socialism as a system for improving the lives of the people.
Trotsky was wrong. The biggest reason Trotsky was wrong was because he believed the peasantry to be counter-revolutionary, which was the basis of Permanent Revolution. However, even simple investigation into socialist states like China prove them to be more genuinely democratic than what preceded it. For example, look at the perceptions of democracy in China:
This is combined with over 90% of the population supporting their government. Consistent studies like this point to something beyond whatever Trotsky believed. Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance goes over how socialist countries have established democratic control.
The real problem with Trotskyism, other than the inapplicability of Permanent Revolution, is that its conclusions are inflexibly against real socialism in modern implementation. Few Trotskyist orgs support AES, while none have established socialism themselves. It's a deeply western, fatalistic tendency.
Explain to me how denying history because it is shameful is a "communist ideal" and then we can talk.
Can you explain? What do you mean by this vague statement?
We are discussing so-called "Communists" on this platform. You and I both know this place is crawling with history denialists (particularly the events of June 1989). Any "ideology" that is more concerned about preserving the image of the state over accepting responsibility is not an ideology worth my or anybody else's time. It's insulting and little and pathetic.
I'm interested in the merits of communism, but all this platform does is re-hash the same state approved talking points over and over. It's tiring and isn't winning anybody with an ounce of morality over.
I don't agree with the idea that "this place is crawling with history denialists." What it is "crawling" with are people that combat the westernized, atrocity propaganda version of June 4th, 1989, instead contextualizing it with what's actually confirmed. For example, western myth-making talks about tanks running over everyone on the square, resulting in 10,000 killed, but what actually happened is that dispersal of the square was peaceful, but on the way to the square hundreds of rioters and PLA members died in fighting around Beijing. This isn't "denialism," but instead deflecting western atrocity propaganda.
We do accept responsibility, and aren't interested in lying, but when we know that the character of events is quantitatively and qualitatively different from the version western anti-communists beat us over the head with, we are forced to confront them honestly. What's insulting and little and pathetic isn't the communists combatting misinformation, but the anti-communists less interested in truth and more interested in wielding whatever convenient narrative they can like a club.
One thing that's important is that when we talk about communism, honestly judging its merits and flaws, people come to communism. I made an intro ML reading list, as an example, that others seem to like. Also, around the world, communist orgs are growing in membership.
The point of this all is that you've done no real effort to explain how we falsify history, you've vaguely asserted it while belittling our efforts. Your citation is that "you and I know this," which isn't a source, nor is it accurate, yet you're using this narrative like a club to try to shut me down, regardless of the truth of the matter. It's thought-terminating.
I value your comments so much. I try to be patient and educate others but it is incredible how thoughtful and methodical your responses are. Thank you.
Thanks so much! It really isn't difficult to do, as long as you stick with what you know, and just try to be as patient as possible, it will work out!
See the above comment for more detail
Can you explain what exactly it is that I'm denying, with evidence? You're proving me correct here, you're denying history and using wetern atrocity propaganda as a club against anyone that wants to improve the world we live in.
Like I said. This platform prohibits posting anything other than the official stance of denialism.
There are plenty of photos of the dead scattered around bloodied and mutilated.
You expect me to ignore that and pretend it didn't happen?
Hundreds of people did die, yes, not 10,000 people and not on the square. This platform prohibits posting the western atrocity propaganda version of historical mythmaking, not discussion of the June 4th protests and riots, nor the fact that the PLA did kill hundreds of rioters. By remaining vague and unserious about your claims, you're painting a picture of us as claiming nobody died at all on June 4th, there were no tanks, nothing happened, etc, but that's not the case at all, and this vague posturing on your part is contributing to that misinformation about us and our stances.
Also what you believe occurred that month doesn't change the state's official stance on the subject.
What do you think the state's official stance on the subject is?
People are actually constantly claiming this on this platform. You're again being disingenuous by claiming otherwise or have your eyes closed.
The whole "tank man wasn't murdered" talking point is a pathetic attempt to deny the entire incident by re-focusing the incident on tank man and completely ignoring the events which lead up to it.
You're entirely wrong. People say that nobody died in Tian'anmen Square, which is true, even the ever-biased Wikipedia agrees that dispersal of the square was peaceful. You're reading people denying the western myth of tanks running over 10,000 people on the square itself as denying any killings by the PLA on June 4th,1989. Post evidence of the claims you believe exist, or stop with your historical denialism.
No, it's to point out how the west teaches a mythologized version of events by focusing on one of its most iconic moments, and showing that it doesn't at all align with the western version of events. If anything, communists are the ones that actually know what the protests were about in the month leading up to it in April and May, CIA involvement with the student leaders through Operation Yellowbird, and so forth, because whenever we claim to support the PRC anti-communists inevitably wield the mythologized version of events like a club against us, which we have to dispel over and over again.
You're pathetic. I JUST explained the talking point to you and how pointless it was and you in your infinite wisdom knee jerked yourself into posting it.
I don't think it's pathetic to combat misinformation that you're spreading, without even having the decency to provide evidence backing your claims up. You have a knee-jerk reaction to deny anything that disagrees with your internal narrative.
Claim A: 10,000 people were killed in Tian'anmen Square on June 4th, 1989
Claim B, Part 1: No, nobody died in Tian'anmen Square on June 4th, 1989.
Claim B, Part 2: Hundreds of people died around Beijing on June 4th, 1989, including dozens of PLA officers lynched and firebombed, as well as hundreds of rioters.
Both parts of Claim B are intrinsically tied together, but you read it as distinct claims made by different people to justify your absurd claims.
You're deflecting by focusing on the square and not the pile of mutilated corpses because you cannot defend that.
Nope, incorrect. You're claiming communists that dispel myths about June 4th are practicing "historical denialism" by doing so, and are now moving the goalposts because you know I'm correct about what happened. You're inventing a motive to suit what you already feel about communists, and don't even have the decency to make a consistent and clear claim with evidence, just vague posturing and libel.
Incorrect. I like communists. I like communism. I don't like denialism.
I would like to be more involved but I cannot in good conscience join any group that participates in denialism and revisionism.
The only one in this thread practicing denialism and revisionism is yourself, though, for the purposes of discrediting communists and communism in general.
Which of these claims do you think is closest to the truth, and which do you think communists are positing?
Claim A: 10,000 people were killed in Tian'anmen Square on June 4th, 1989
Claim B, Part 1: No, nobody died in Tian'anmen Square on June 4th, 1989.
Claim B, Part 2: Hundreds of people died around Beijing on June 4th, 1989, including dozens of PLA officers lynched and firebombed, as well as hundreds of rioters.
Keep in mind that in my view, as someone that speaks with communists all the time, I have only ever seen communists make Claim B, either in seperate comments or (usually) together.
Anybody know a forum for actual leftist?
Lemmygrad.ml, Hexbear.net
I genuinely don't know what you're trying to achieve, here, are you trying to convince me or others? I clearly have done the research on this topic, and others can see that and the sources I've provided. All you've done is gesture, so I don't see who that serves or to what end other than legitimizing me.
I'm not trying to achieve anything other than having a discussion with you. Apparently that's an unusual concept to you?
You're the one who engaged me. You can't complain about a conversation you started and continued.
I feel like you're more talking at me than to me, though. My goal is either to persuade you to see the communist stance on June 4th, 1989 as I see it, or to provide evidence for any onlookers that may initially agree with you but instead see the evidence I provide and reconsider.
This isn't really a two-way conversation, though, you've dodged all attempts at me asking for evidence or even for concrete claims, while you've insulted me, slandered me, and more. I can only assume that that's what you want, to belittle and undermine rather than have a constructive discussion.
You've refused to stay on topic and deflected at every turn with irrelevant information. That's not a "constructive conversation" either.
I do get passionate when it comes to these things. It's alarming and disheartening to see people's lives just shrugged off and disrespected.
I do apologize for getting feisty at you.
I've stayed on topic the entire time, though. Where have I deflected? What information is "irrelevant?" If it appears that I've done so, I can only answer that it's a symptom of me trying to respond to what you insist on remaining vague about.
I don't see anyone doing that, though. You keep asserting that we are, such as using the fact that Tank Man lived as a distraction from the hundreds that did die, but when given evidence to the contrary, such as how it's intrinsically connected to the actual character of the events, including the hundreds that did die, you resort to insult rather than answering me honestly.
Accepted, thank you.
Good night. Going to bed now.
G'night.
You are such a typical western chauvanist its actually crazy. You feel you know so much more and better than us subhuman brainwashed Chinese bugs and you just need to come save us the great white saviour to educate us on how terrible we and our government really are. You disgust me and the fact you pretend to be a communist while spitting on us is sick.
Lol show me this pile
And now you've been reduced to the point of lying through your teeth
It is the exact same wrong statement at the exact same level of no detail, only longer and more haughty.
You and I both know I will be banned if I posted (the freely available) photos. It's easy to claim something never happened when you own and control the platform.
You're being intentionally disingenuous and you know it.
Photos are freely available, yes, and they back up what I claimed, not what you're vaguely hinting at. Westerners have used them to try to twist the narrative, distorting the context of the photos to concoct atrocity propaganda.
It's easy to claim something vague happened, but not provide any evidence, and complain about misinformation being removed as a way to claim truth is removed. If you don't do any legwork to prove that, though, your argument is utterly unconvincing.
Essentially, you want to uphold your own view, without proving any of it and without daring to look at counter-evidence. I recommend reading Qiao Collective's Tian'anmen Protests Reading List for a good place to start.
Pictures of the dead do not back up what you claim.
They do, actually. I've seen them, pretty much every communist that's had to research June 4th, 1989 has had to.
In other words, you have nothing, but you're too stubborn and arrogant to admit it