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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
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This is going to backfire in a big way. Whole lot of people seem to think this will be justice porn or somehow convince his base of his criminality but it is going to do no such thing. According to one poll, the majority (77%) of likely GOP primary voters are already convinced the trial is "politically motivated", with only 8% more concerned about him attempting to overturn an election. You can take a look at some polling here, there are other even more troublesome results as well: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-poll-indictments-2023-08-20/
No matter how awful, contradictory, and ridiculous he will be in that court room, this is likely going to be a massive boon for Trump, and his followers are going to see it as the realization of their own fears of persecution. This man is an ascendant fascist leader, not the sad sack finally facing consequences that liberals so desperately want him to be, and the effect this will have on mobilizing his base to continue to escalate will be immense. These people do not give a single fuck about """law and order""" no matter how much they pretend they do, stop assuming they will just accept things when he is found guilty. They won't.
I'm just trying to help people realize how dangerous and precarious this whole situation is. People were laughing and making jokes when he first announced his candidacy, and kept on doing it right up to the point that he won the election. Don't make the same mistake again, because while yall are cracking jokes, him and his ghouls are hurting people. They are passing discriminatory laws, they are in the supreme court setting dangerous precedents and overturning inconvenient ones, and they are patrolling the streets looking for people to brutalize and throw in jail. They are committing hate crimes and becoming increasingly radicalized and mobilized.
Stop pretending this is entertainment or business as usual, it's not. I'm begging you to understand that the fascists are already here, and the longer they're underestimated the better their chances of seizing control.
First of all, never try to get inside a conservative's head if you are going to come out with a loser defeatism attitude. 2nd, Convicted Sex Offender Treason Trump will not have any control of the trial at all.
That is the most important reason why the trial needs to be televised.
Another reason why it is absolutely critical to have the trial televised. I can remember the Watergate TV hearings and the entire country was riveted by the seriousness of the proceedings. The Jan 6 House committee televised hearing were also riveting for everybody who watched them in full. It will be like that only with everyone watching. The very reason for televising the proceedings is so that everybody understands the seriousness.
Remember that Onion headline "man would die fighting to defend what he imagines the Constitution to be"?
Many modern conservatives are like that. They will bleat all day about laws, and yet have never spent 2 minutes even reading a Wikipedia page about them.
They'll believe whatever pundits tell them to believe.
Witch hunt? Unconstitutional? Politically motivated? Kangaroo court?
Not for one minute will any of those law and order loving, institution-protecting, facts not feelings, crowd consider that Trump is there because of real actual crimes he really did commit.
Criminal trials are different tho. Especially when news agencies are doing nightly breakdowns of how bad this really is. Fox can only cover up so much...
I've said it before, religion primes people to believe stupid shit, as long as it's delivered with conviction.
Talking snake? No problem! Waking on water? You betchya! Kangaroo court? Don't mind if I do!
Begging people to understand the severity of the threat Trump and his followers pose is a "loser defeatist attitude"? If you genuinely think that anyone still supporting him is going to come out of watching this man on TV thinking less of him, or seeing it as a serious matter instead of some kind of political assassination of their dear leader, then you've not been paying attention for years.
How many times have liberals been convinced "surely, this will be the end of him!" only for it to galvanize his base and further cement him as their figurehead? Stop thinking that his base has an even remotely similar worldview to yourself, you could show them all the evidence in the world of his wrongdoing and they will still find a way to pretend it's not true. This is what I am trying to get people to understand, if you think fascists play by the rules you are sorely mistaken.
but this isnt about his base. I have written them off long ago. this is about the rest of the country. galvanizing them into understanding the seriousness of what this two-bit used car salesman huskster tried (and continues trying) to do to this country is the point.
republicans can not win power with their base alone. this was never about them.
As I replied to another person above, if you think my message was about votes and elections then you've misunderstood. This is quite literally a trial about an attempted overthrow of an election, their disdain for democracy is clear as day. The extent of that disdain, and what his base might be willing to do to get him in power regardless is exactly what I am trying to get people not to underestimate. Also, it might be a sobering thought to consider how many cops and soldiers are part of his base.
edit: a couple words I missed
So... bend the knee? These traitors are losing legal battles daily, and it's all over the news. Let's keep it rolling.
Every single person here is fully aware of that. You're proposing that we, what? Just don't do anything? And anything that is done on a legal level be hidden from public view?
What is it you’re suggesting?
Begging that Trump's criminal trial is not shown on TV so that people will never understand the critical severity of his crimes, just because you've been duped into mindless panic is a loser defeatist attitude. You are letting Trump neofascists bully you into favoring a less strict accountability. A handful of Trump's followers committing suicide by cop do not pose a threat to the most powerful country in the world and by the end of the trial most people will understand that Treason Trump and other top neofascists are going to jail. Did Al Capone still have many followers after he went to jail? Nope.
His supporters are the cops. His followers are already in office, in courts, in law enforcement, and in the military at every level of each. They are already actively hurting people, indoctrinating children, destroying the environment, criminalizing minorities, brutalizing and killing dissidents, and both passing and enforcing laws to aid them in doing all of the aforementioned.
This is not a mindless panic. Women are having their rights repealed, queer folks are facing increasing violence and threats of imprisonment, and just about every visible minority is facing higher incidence of hate crimes and discrimination. The majority of americans are living paycheck to paycheck, and people can't afford average rent on average income (let alone minimum wage) in any city in the country. People are fucking starving and dying on the street, and the number one cause of bankruptcy is medical debt which is something that shouldn't even exist.
The refusal to reconcile reality with this fantasy of a powerful and healthy country is part of what has enabled fascists to ascend once more, and what keeps burying the bar for democrats further underground.
Every time Trump gets put on TV because people like yourself are convinced that this time will finally be his undoing, his base and support grows. The amount of free publicity this fuck has gotten from people that are ostensibly his opponents is staggering. If you keep assuming that laws, ethics, morals, and rules are going to be followed by fascists, you're in for a rude awakening.
edit: a couple words
Okay Ivan. You keep on cowering in fear in the basement while level headed proud Americans do the critical necessary work of protecting our 240 years of democracy, defeating the neofascists, and moving forward with progress.
Ah yes, the critical necessary work of waiting to vote every four years, sitting on your ass hoping fascism will sort itself out, and expecting the institutions you take for granted to protect you. Extremely brave and level headed, not cowardly or delusional in the least. /s
The weird insinuation that I am in any way related to or supportive of Russia is a nice touch, because nothing says "moving forward with progress" like demonizing an entire population, almost all of whom have as little control over their government as you do yours. I'm sure those neofascists are shaking in their boots.
The critical necessary work of putting Treason Trump and the neofascists on trial and televising it so the whole country can see.
You're the one calling for inaction and fear because the bullies might get upset.
This neofascist sure looks like he's been owned by the libs
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fe792f17-6e1f-494f-bc6b-a9e740f16bf7.jpeg
You are completely wrong. Why focus on idiots who won't change their mind no matter what? The important voter base are moderates and independents. If you are staunchly Democrat your vote does not matter. If you're Republican no matter what your vote does not matter. Sad but true. The people you're so worried about simply don't matter. If televising the trial convinces people who are on the fence then it's the right choice. They're just a small number of people.
If you read what I wrote and thought I was worried about how this would affect votes then you've missed the point completely. They do not care about votes or elections, their figurehead is literally on trial for trying to overturn the last one.
It's not his die-hard magats that need to see this. They are only a majority of Republican voters. Independents are the largest block with Dems and GOP both smaller. It's people like my dad that have never been forced to look at the details without fox, newsmax etc reframing. This is hard to look at, for anyone. I understand your pessimism.
It's not pessimism. Fascists are already banning books, criminalizing trans people, reversing environmental protections, outlawing abortion and criminalizing those that seek them, rewriting school curricula with historical revisionism and fascist propaganda to suit their needs, perpetrating hate crimes, discriminating against minorities and political opponents, and their media is cranking out fuel for stochastic terrorism day after day. Hell, on the primary debate stage the other day, the candidates were talking about how they would each approach executing people at the border. Of course there was a layer of euphemism, it was about "lethal force in border security", but a whole hell of a lot of the people on the receiving end of that are migrants and refugees fleeing the conditions american foreign and economic policy has subjected them to.
I have clearly touched a nerve here because there are a lot of upset people downvoting what I'm saying, but I am not being a cynic or a defeatist, I am begging people to reckon with the reality of what is already happening. As I've said repeatedly, this trial is literally about how he incited his supporters to attempt overthrowing an election, and people are in here acting as if all that matters is how this might sway voters.
Fascists do not care about democracy, why do you think the GOP spends as much time as it does gerrymandering and messing with voter eligibility, closing polling stations, and purging rolls? They are not going to be voted away, and they are not going to give a fuck about whatever ethics people are just hoping they will abide by. Rules are seen as an obstacle to be overcome, not a boundary which cannot be crossed.
I said this in another reply but I'm going to repeat it here: ask yourself how much of his base are cops and soldiers, and then think about who it is that you're expecting to step in when his base takes another swing.
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To be clear, my issue was never about whether or not Trump should be put on trial, but rather the terrible idea of televising it and turning it into an opportunity for him to promote himself. I do think he should face consequences for his actions, but people keep putting this sack of shit on TV, doing his publicity for him, and then being shocked when it turns out in his favor every single time. No matter the verdict, because of how much of an event this will be, he will most likely come out the other end with greater and stronger support.
He will probably be found guilty, but what I am trying to illustrate is that he could not ask for a better stage to sell himself as the embattled, targeted, brave leader in the war against the deep state. Think of how often he speaks to his base about the nebulous "they" that are against him, "they" want to silence him, "they" want to put him in jail because he's telling it like it is and threatening the woke agenda or whatever the fuck. People here are convinced this will be the ultimate comeuppance, but his supporters are going to see their saint being persecuted by his adversaries.
So many in here are treating this like a victory lap, but it's a fucking campaign ad. If he's somehow barred from running, you know who I think will win the republican nomination? Whoever pledges to pardon him as soon as they enter office.
I tend to agree with you on most points you have made. Just one point of fact why this trial is so important: it is a State trial, and no president can pardon him. In fact, it would be difficult even in deep red Georgia to get him a pardon.
Right but what makes you think that'll stop them from doing it anyway? Bending and breaking rules is their bread and butter, this is no different.
Your problem is that you're seeing things as they really are whereas the people down voting you and telling you that you're a pessimist are in denial and you're ruining their vibes
I'm having difficulty finding a source because the information environment is thoroughly saturated on this topic. But IIRC, this has been tried before. There was a study where people who were thorough Trump supporters, the whole nine yards, when made to roleplay a mock jury and presented with the body of evidence available to the researchers at that point on one of Trump's crimes, still nonetheless felt they had no choice but to face a reality that they didn't want to believe.
Narcissists and liars thrive when they can dominate the narrative, and flounder when they can't. The Court system is designed around that. Hopefully it's up to the task.
I don't know about that. You should listen to the Knowledge Fight episodes featuring the Alex Jones trial. I have a feeling it's going to be something like that.
I'm just gonna ask you to take a moment and think about the gulf of disparity between these two figures in real terms. One ran a rather successful conspiracy grift show and the other is the former president, on trial for inciting others to attempt overthrowing an election. The fact that you're even comparing the two as if people will drop Trump as readily as they did Jones, when he is still the front runner for candidacy by an enormous margin while gearing up to go on trial for treason is exactly the kind of underestimation I'm talking about.
You think trump can get a better attorney than Alex Jones??? Lol dude is toxic as a client and every capable atty knows it.
I mean Alex Jones's attorneys didn't fare much better when they accidentally leaked all of Jones's texts to the prosecution.
It's less that and more two self absorbed narcissists who have been drinking their own Kool aid for WAY too long.
They're looking for someone that will let them get away with doing the awful things they want to do to people. They're never going to change their minds about that. Ever. So we just... let them make that happen by letting them destroy democracy and law?
Let them "take action". They've already seen what happened to "the loyalist" that helped with Jan 6th and they're not swayed. The sooner they're in prison, the better off we all are.
I quite agree. Giving a TV personality airtime is a dangerous gamble, and I'm not sure of the payoff the courts are looking for.
I really feel the important part of this trial is whether at the end he's barred from the ballots. If he's allowed to run it doesn't really matter who wins. His candidacy alone would show the rule of law and democracy has failed. That's the final, dim hope i cling to, that he will be barred from running. If he isn't, and runs? Thats when i will know for sure it is already as you said, that fascism is already here and democracy is dead.
Even if he's barred, I don't imagine anyone winning the GOP primary without a pledge to pardon him once elected. Beyond that, it seems that people really do not want to consider the very real possibility of a coup or jail break. Every time these fucks escalate there's a chorus of wilfully ignorant liberals bleating about "who could have seen this coming???" and every time there have been people like me begging them to take the threat seriously and to stop imagining there will be some moment when they finally see reason and accept defeat. The democratic strategy for opposing fascism seems to be just never losing another election, and somehow think throwing their most vulnerable constituents under the bus and catering to republicans and the mythical undecided voter is going to grow their lead enough to make that happen.
I'm saying all this not to frighten people but to try to wake them up to the reality of the threat we face, because right now we're sleepwalking into fascists seizing power.
I agree. As one of the Democrats left behind in their rightward lurching i feel (quite painfully, tbh) how the party seems more interested in bringing moderate Republicans into the fold more than they want folks like me who have been here all along. Their practice of giving money to Republican extremists with the express purpose of running against them in the general tells me they wish to use fascism to their benefit rather than stomp it out as they claim.