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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
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I do not agree with the castle doctrine. It's too easily used to justify lethal force when retreat is an option, however self-defense is a valid justification and from the description given I think that's completely plausible. An unknown person breaking the glass and potentially armed could be a threat. It sucks that a guy who possibly did nothing wrong has to defend himself in an investigation, but we should have a high bar on lethal actions for civilians and cops (the standard should be higher for cops).
I actually don't hate castle doctrine tbh, which is commonly confused with the more controversial "stand your ground." I frankly do not see "a duty to retreat" from one's own occupied dwelling in the event of an intruder, in my opinion that duty dissipates the second forcible entry has been made to my home.
The common thing I hear is "they usually just want your TV," but A) The best way to steal a TV is to push a cart, trust me, especially if you still have a 24hr walmart, and B) if you have to rob people of their TV who are also probably living paycheck to paycheck, at least have the common decency to not do so while they're home and scare the shit out of them. For all they know you could be a rapist or a murderer even if just out of opportunity or "no witnesses," even by accident with poor gun safety from robbers. Tbh it's hard for me to agree that some poor family should have to flee their own home or hide in a closet if someone else decides to enter it unlawfully.
I said "option" to retreat not "duty" which is an important distinction I think. And there's also the option of other reasonable force. I don't think killing to protect my TV is reasonable, but fighting back possibly even causing injury might be. If I lived in a place where the intruder wasn't likely to be armed, I'd probably whack his hand with broom handle, and I wouldn't even feel bad if I broke his wrist because some use of force to keep a stranger from entering my house is warranted. When it comes to lethal force though the standard should be higher, which is why I prefer the self-defense/defense of others test. Did the guy have good reason to think the person breaking in was an imminent danger, that he might be armed and therefore escalation to firing a gun was reasonable? I don't pretend to know, but I think that's the test that should be used. That test should take into account that it was his house being broken in to, and that there was another person present he might have wanted to protect, because that definitely affects your perception of danger. We don't need a set of principles that say you automatically get a pass when it's your house, I think it's better to look at each case individually.
Right, but the castle doctrine specifically is a set of principles which when incorporated into the laws lessens the "duty" to retreat inside one's own home, which is why I said "duty." Castle doctrine then actually gives one the "option" because while you'd have no "duty to retreat," you still "could if you wanted," while with the inverse the "option" to "not retreat" is taken from you.
I think it's a reasonable assumption that if they break into my house while I'm in it, they're at least willing to harm me to accomplish whatever goal they had and the goal becomes inconsequential, and therefore it is reasonable to defend myself to the fullest extent necessary. In the time it takes to play the "Hello sir yes it's dark and 3am and you just woke me up but do you have a weapon of any kind or are we about to engage in a bout of fisticuffs" game I could be stabbed, I'm not taking that chance frankly.
And you're welcome to so, but I personally would rather not incur undue risk, I'd rather have the option to defend the safest-for-me way I can, which happens to be a firearm. With castle doctrine we're both happy, you can broom-whack and I can stay safe, options.
That's what I mean, imo if you've entered my occupied dwelling "for the TV bro I promise," me responding with deadly force is self defense. It isn't about the tv, contrary to what he or detractors of castle doctrine will tell you, it's about the fact that if he couldn't wait until I get to work or just steal one from walmart he's clearly willing to do me harm, he could very well be armed, and we're in a private secluded location where nobody could hear me scream, yeah "so anyway I started blasting."
I think that set of principles is right, someone breaking into your house while you're inside it is a bigger threat than it's naysayers would have you believe.
That's a valid statement.
It also demonstrates a wider problem: gun proliferation is so incredibly high that the default assumption is always going to be "that person might have a gun," and this will always prompt a much lowered threshold to use one's own gun in return.
Exactly this. I am from Central Europe and if someone tried to break into my home, I wouldnt assume by ~~Renault~~ default that they have a weapon. Because burglars here aren't armed.
Do Renaults often figure into your thinking? ;)
Oh shit
And are your rapists armed?
According to most stories in the newspapers, no.
Then an unarmed intruder can still be a serious threat.
It doesn't really matter if they have a gun or not from the perspective of someone who's home is being broken into. Any physical violence is dangerous and can result in death. People breaking into homes aren't getting shot because they "might have a gun". They're getting shot because it's unreasonable to expect a victim to accept any further risk by trying to talk the aggressor down or subdue them some other way once they've broken in.
No disagreement. I'm a commie pinko by American standards, which is to say slightly left by European standards. I support gun regulation but it won't solve the proliferation until we face up to this weird fetishization of guns we have.
You know that guns aren't the only way to hurt people, right? People can be killed quite easily
No, I did not know that.
That's amazing.