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Prepare the next batch of 'fell for it' awards (hexbear.net)

submitted 1 week ago by Saymaz@lemmygrad.ml to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

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[-] LadyCajAsca@hexbear.net 33 points 1 week ago

pro-russian neolib to pro-european neolib, looks like basically nothing changed in hungary... I even checked if any left parties were doing numbers, and... nope. looks like it's status-quo in Hungary again, I guess...?

[-] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago

Take this with as many grains of salt you want, but I have a Hungarian friend who is at least sympathetic to communism, and while he would under no normal circumstances ever like someone a zionist neolib like Magyar, but even he is celebrating right now. It's not that Magyar is good, but rather that outsiders struggle to understand the depth of corruption and depravity that was the Orbán regime. Seeing someone systematically dismantle every institution in your country while powerless to stop it is pretty traumatic. And Magyar has even promised to set up a committee to prosecute corruption in the previous government, perhaps even Orbán himself (although like Trump, I'll believe it when I see it).

Anyway, I guess my point is that for Hungarians things did change, and you can't fault them for being optimistic right now. It remains to be seen if this is just going to be a Trump-Biden-Trump dynamic, or if the Magyar government can actually make meaningful changes to ensure this kind of takeover can't happen again (big if).

[-] space_comrade@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago

It's not that Magyar is good, but rather that outsiders struggle to understand the depth of corruption and depravity that was the Orbán regime.

I'm from a certain neighboring country of Hungary and with a fairly similar political situation and I can say libs in these east/southeast European countries tend to exaggerate how much of a problem corruption really is. Their worldview is incapable of a holistic analysis of human civilization so all problems of a country must come internally, whether that's corruption, an evil oppressive "dictator", a vague notion of "culture" or whatever else they think of.

I don't believe anything is significantly going to change for Hungary other than the foreign politics.

[-] Oskolki@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago

People often confuse liberalism for corruption.

Hiring cheaper labor from abroad is not corruption, this is normal. Not investing into people is not corruption, this is normal, you're supposed to invest into profit. When will people understand?

Stop giving a shit about human life if you want to live in liberalism, that includes your own. Fall behind, stay behind, no one's coming for you. That is normal, this is not corruption. We are but meat sacks running to the finish line, that's all we are.

[-] 0__0@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago

True, and if this genius even attempts to null the contract with Russia when it comes to natural gas and halt oil imports, Hungarians will be singing Orban's praises. These people genuinely think that some kind of bourgeois democracy and the "rule of law" (as if the law is the 10 fucking commandments brought down by god and not a list of rules made by capitalists to reinforce the status quo) matter as much as the economic base.

Also, I just saw this moron suggest Hungary adopt the Euro LMAO. Yes, hop on the sinking ship, give up your monetary sovereignty to own Orban!

[-] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

I'm not sure I get that position. It's a material fact that astounding amounts of wealth have been siphoned out of the Hungarian state and into the pockets of Orbán and a selection of his cronies. It's also a material fact that Hungary's democratic institutions (which, yeah, liberal democracy - were never great to begin with) have been systematically hollowed out to the point that it is a genuine shock for my friend that the supreme court (which has been packed with Orbán toadies) didn't overturn the election. I don't think it's exaggeration to believe that beginning to revert either of these facts will benefit the Hungarian working class - even if they are just reverting to what is essentially status quo in many European countries.

I'm not particularly optimistic about Magyar either. And I'm painfully aware that an incumbent has real little incentive to undo constitutional changes that benefit the incumbent. He also faces an uphill battle against hostile courts, media etc. and it's possible he'll have his hands tied. We'll see. I think Hungarians can have cautious optimism about having ended 16 years of high-handed kleptocracy, as a treat.

[-] space_comrade@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago

It's a material fact that astounding amounts of wealth have been siphoned out of the Hungarian state and into the pockets of Orbán and a selection of his cronies.

What's the difference between the wealth being siphoned by national bourgeoisie cronies or foreign multinational cronies? Neoliberalism is the ideology of corruption, it's inevitable either way.

It's also a material fact that Hungary's democratic institutions (which, yeah, liberal democracy - were never great to begin with) have been systematically hollowed out to the point that it is a genuine shock for my friend that the supreme court (which has been packed with Orbán toadies) didn't overturn the election.

So, uh, they haven't really been that deeply compromised after all? I think your friend bought into opposition propaganda, same thing is happening in my country, they like to portray our ruling party as this greatest evil that ever befell the nation when in reality when they were in power once or twice they didn't really do anything significantly differently, our policy was largely dictated by more powerful European nations either way.

[-] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 1 points 1 week ago

"What's the difference between the wealth being siphoned by national bourgeoisie cronies or foreign multinational cronies"

In principle? Nothing. In reality? Massive difference in scale. It's very obvious from your dismissive tone that you don't actually understand the amounts in question. I'm not saying that other EU countries are free from corruption (legal and otherwise), but a massive amount of the money that would otherwise go to fund infrastructure, healthcare, etc. in Hungary were directly siphoned off. The prospect of that changing is going to benefit the Hungarian working class. I find it callous and a bit out of touch to tut-tut them for celebrating that fact.

"So, uh, they haven't really been that deeply compromised after all?"

That's your words, not mine. We're talking about a country where supreme court justices have publicly apologized and grovelled before the president after fining his party a symbolic amount for breach of campaign laws. The same president who suspended term limits and ruled for 16 years. Who built a massive football stadium in his tiny home village. I hate my own EU country for a variety of reasons, but that shit simply couldn't currently happen here. The system, as flawed as it is, has brakes built into it that prevent this kind of open and massive embezzlement of public funds. It's fine if you don't think that matters, but it's unserious to act like it shouldn't matter to the average Hungarian.

[-] space_comrade@hexbear.net 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The prospect of that changing is going to benefit the Hungarian working class.

It's not gonna change significantly, it never does. I'll eat my words if it does but I don't think it will, I don't know of an example where an Eastern European country got rid of local corruption and things were much better for the working class, it just doesn't happen that way. I think if you believe all this corruption money is suddenly going to make its way to healthcare and infrastructure you're being a bit naive.

[-] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 1 points 1 week ago

Maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. The ideas that corruption doesn't matter and nothing ever changes are unconvincing to me in the face of A) the immense scale of Orbán's corruption and B) the fact that he actually lost, and accepted the outcome (something very few had predicted).

But I fear we're going in circles. I'll go with cautious optimism for now, and save the cynicism for later.