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I have been thinking of learning some programming recently, but I don't feel confident enough. Is there any point in beginning with something like Zig or Go, and switching to something more serious later?

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[-] Zak@lemmy.world 54 points 21 hours ago

I question the suggestion that Zig and Go are not "serious" programming languages. They certainly weren't designed to be "easy" beginner languages.

I don't think it matters a whole lot which language you start with. Learning to program is largely separate from learning a particular language, and if you do programming for a while, you'll probably learn several. I do think someone who wants to understand programming deeply should learn each of:

  • A lisp, probably Racket, but others will do. This teaches a lot about how computation works, and is at least a local maximum for abstractive power.
  • C, an assembly language, or something similar where the developer must manage memory manually and has the ability to mismanage it. This teaches how computers work.
  • A statically typed functional language, probably Haskell. This makes programming more math-like and probably represents a local maximum for what can be proven about a program's behavior without solving the halting problem.
  • SQL. I wish there was something prettier with a modicum of popularity that does what it does (PRQL is my favorite recent attempt), but there isn't. This teaches thinking about data in sets and relations, and you will almost certainly use it in practice.
[-] 0t79JeIfK01RHyzo@lemmy.ml 13 points 21 hours ago

The creator of Go has an infamous quote on the language.

The key point here is our programmers are Googlers, they’re not researchers. They’re typically, fairly young, fresh out of school, probably learned Java, maybe learned C or C++, probably learned Python. They’re not capable of understanding a brilliant language but we want to use them to build good software. So, the language that we give them has to be easy for them to understand and easy to adopt. – Rob Pike

source

[-] x74sys@programming.dev 9 points 19 hours ago

That’s one of the dumbest articles I‘ve ever read. Glad the author realized it themselves.

[-] GiorgioPerlasca@lemmy.ml 3 points 19 hours ago

So Go was meant to be something similar to Java 4. A language where it is very difficult to shoot to your feet.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 19 hours ago

Why in your opinion do you think any person who wants to understand programming "deeply" (I'm not exactly sure what you mean with that) should learn lisp and haskell? It seems way way unnecessary.

And then you throw in SQL. Sure why not, but then why not javascript, Lua, c++, rust, PHP and a whole load of others who will teach you something unique most probably.

[-] Zak@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago

Some people want to learn programming to get a job, though perhaps not as many in 2026. Some people want to do a project that happens to requiring programming. Some actually want to understand programming and get good at it. The last group will benefit from learning Lisp and Haskell even if they don't end up using those languages much. I thought my first comment explained why and I think Corngood elaborated on it, but I'll add more.

The reason to use programming languages instead of machine/assembly languages is that they add abstractions, and allow the programmer to add more abstractions. An abstraction is a name and implementation for a repeated pattern in code, which documents the programmer's intent when it is used, allows all invocations to be modified in one place, and substantially shortens programs. In most languages, there's a distinction between abstractions the language designer can add and those the programmer can; in Lisp, there is not.

If most languages didn't have if or class, you couldn't add them in a library; you'd have to modify the interpreter or compiler. Here's if defined in a Lisp-like language I'm working on:

(defmacro if (test then else)
  `(cond ~test ~then true ~else))

This is possible because Lisp code is made of Lisp data structures which it can easily manipulate, and because it has the ability to control when evaluation occurs. Here, we need to splice three blocks of code into a cond expression, which is a more generalized form of conditional evaluation that takes an unlimited number of test/then pairs. We must also prevent the premature evaluation of the branch not chosen, which is why if and cond can't be regular functions. In Common Lisp, the entire object system can be implemented as a library.

Haskell and similar languages also offer significant power for abstraction with its sophisticated type system and lazy evaluation, but the more important lesson they can teach is the gurantees they can make at compile time. Once a Haskell program compiles, it has a much greater chance to work as expected than any other language I've used.

SQL teaches thinking in data. Most programs exist to store and manipulate data, so that's pretty relevant.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 hour ago

Sure, but many languages do that, see my answer below. I just personally wouldn't recommend either lisp or haskell to someone learning how to program. There are more modern and better ways, IMO.

[-] Corngood@lemmy.ml 8 points 18 hours ago

Not OP but I was a pretty competent C/C++/C# programmer first. Lisp and Haskell both totally changed how I thing about programming. I've used all the other languages you listed and I don't think any of them have a unique philosophy to offer, except maybe rust for the memory model.

Lisp teaches you how flexible programming languages should be. Haskell teaches you about things like higher kinded types, and exposes you to loads of cool category theory stuff. Other languages can probably accomplish these goals, but I don't think any of the alternatives you listed could.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Flexibility? Have you tried c++ 😁, check out template meta programming, and voilà rusts static memory management and compile time error checking in c++.

What I want to say is you don't need this or that language to grasp functionality, and IMO heskel and lisp probably have more interesting and modern counterparts, if you feel the need.

Edit, forgot you're not OP so my answer is potentially a bit wonky, sorry about that.

[-] galaxy_nova@lemmy.world 3 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

I really hate SQL it often feels like you have to work backwards instead of procedurally when you get anything complex going. Thank goodness I mostly work in pyspark.

Edit: Also thanks for the shout to prql looks cool might try it in a personal project or something

[-] mesamunefire@piefed.social 6 points 20 hours ago

My entire career is mostly 90% SQL and CRUD. To each their own!

[-] toynbee@piefed.social 1 points 3 hours ago

CRUD

When I was growing up the most advanced console to which I had access was the Genesis (or Master System, if you prefer). On it, by far the game I played the most was Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3. (I liked Tobias Boon - sorry - Noob Saibot).

For that game, you could unlock debug mode by pressing b, a, down, left, a, down, c, right, up, down. BADLADCRUD. I don't know what CRUD is in the context in which you were commenting, but it reminded me of this.

[-] Gonzako@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

Same! The more I learn the more astounded I am. You mean I can retrieve 5m records in .01 seconds?

this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2026
77 points (96.4% liked)

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