190
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2026
190 points (99.5% liked)
Chapotraphouse
14381 readers
464 users here now
Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.
No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
Slop posts go in c/slop. Don't post low-hanging fruit here.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
I mean by that standard every liberal calling for a ceasefire fits the bill. The question is how people here should think of him. Is he anything more than a half-aware self-interested petite bourgeois socdem? Even they can sometimes so good things, within hard limits.
There is also an important consideration. Those who call for moderation often give the appearance of opposing a manifestation of capitalist oppression, but then through qualifying and left-punching also do work on behalf of that capitalist oppression. Such as the examples where he uncritically repeats debunked Hasbara to both sides the topic. Sometimes it's tempting to think, "well on the balance this is helping", and I think that way sometimes as well, but I increasingly think we can move more quickly past the notion of "liberal whispering", that we can push much harder and faster than we give ourselves credit for, and so the moderating influence becomes more of a detriment.
I didn't read anything there that tells me he isn't a Zionist. Liberal Zionism is a reluctant acceptance of Israel's "right to exist", a bias for a "two-state solution", that kind of thing. The implicit acceptance that the Zionist entity is and should be here to stay.
I think NJR suggests the Hasan Piker line of thinking which is to just suggest Israel should become a multiethnic democracy through unstated means. I guess we could split that hair and call it antizionist because it denies the ethnostate, but to me it always reads as more liberal whispering propaganda, a softened stance intended to make them think (just a little) rather than stating a concrete political position.
A lot of liberals will nod along to calls for ceasefire and then support a bunch of money and guns to Israel. He's not doing that.
I agree we don't need to give an inch to the "but of course October 7 was bad" crowd. I don't think Robinson fully agrees with that -- he has a more pacifistic approach to violence -- but a lot of that last article leans very heavily in that direction.
I mean, that's one of the more realistic ends to Israel as it's currently constituted. It's what happened to apartheid South Africa. And just like South Africa, there are millions of settlers who are not going to voluntarily leave. If not some form of multiethnic government, what is the plan for those people?
A lot of liberals will be against US money to Israel but also still believe that Israel itself deserves to exist and still should continue existing. I think this is the most basic Zionism - a fundamental acceptance, and even support for, the basic premise of the project on this level. So the "no longer an ethnostate" part can do a lot of work against that liberal Zionists tendency but still be incomplete in that it is wishes for a particular idealist outcome without focusing clearly on the end to Zionist oppression and for liberation of Palestine and Palestinians from occupation. This could look like several different things and does not need to be some westernized ideal of a liberal democracy to be justice and liberation. That is putting up roadblocks to liberation, saying it has to look one particular way, and sets them up to tut-tut if it doesn't go that direction.
Sorry I don't think I understand what you mean.
Regarding the end of Zionism and the beginning of a free Palestine it could look like many different scenarios depending on how it is achieved. I think a much larger exodus than in South Africa is to be expected, as the social connections are much weaker (the project is much younger, people have less history) and the ethnic supremacist embedding is intense. The lack of that embedding will be catastrophic to the Zionist psyche. The idea that there is no point in staying under equitable conditions may be very popular. Even the threat of them might be enough. We already saw an impetus to do a version of this simply because the illusion or complete domination was so undermines by October 7.