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Peak civilisation
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2023
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believe it or not there were black people who were able to get work and buy homes. These things were not exclusive to white, christian, males. Im not even sure trans was on the radar at that point and yeah gay was generally closeted. The eighties though started tearing things apart although it was not really felt until the 2000's. 70's was the last vestigage of proper tax levels and social programs.
You're "not sure trans was on the radar" because right wing media has convinced you that it's abnormal. Trans people have been around forever.
well trans before surgical augemtation is going to be a bit difficult.
My guy, theres evidence of an intersex knight buried with great reverence in, I believe, Denmark, about 1000 years ago.
But what made the knight intersex? The clothing?
Brother, their genitals
You do know what intersex is, right?
I don't think anyone believes genetic things like that did not exist in the past, but is that really trans in the modern meaning which I will admit Im not sure of exact definitions around it. I mean there are plenty of trans folks today that are genetically perfect xx or xy specimens.
I agree on that very much, but that's not necessarily the point I was trying to make.
However, there were indeed trans people in the past my friend, who were perfectly xx or xy.
Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that do not fit the binary. Intersex folks are not inherently trans; but many were put through gender reassignment surgery post-birth and usually without their permission, so some do in fact, feel they are trans.
see its the use of some. some non intersex are trans to, no? so pointing to a historical body that is intersex does not necessarily correlate with historical trans.
I'm not sure I understand. Where did I say historically intersex bodies mean they're trans? ...are you talking about the grave found in Suontaka, Hattula in Finland? Because they did DNA testing and discovered the deceased had Klinefelter syndrome, which to very crudely summarize (and I apologize if I say this incorrectly) is someone mostly male-presenting with an additional copy of the X chromosome; so XXY instead of XY chromosomes. The deceased was dressed in female clothing of the time, and in the grave they found jewelry attributed to women in that time as well. That's why they theorize the individual might have been trans as well.
yeah I feel its just mixing things though to point to these might have beens. The modern movement to me is individuals as adults (mostly) determining what their gender is which is defined as not the same as their sex. This is my understanding but im never really sure if I have something like this as you sorta have to belong to the culture to really understand it. I belong to my own and you will even get debate within a group about what it means to be part of it as cultures are almost constantly in a state of redefining even if core elements remain the same. So anyway the phrase there are examples of trans (presumably like the modern movement) having existed is different than the phrase there are examples where its theorized that trans individuals might have existed in history.
Trans individuals have been a thing since humans first existed. Historical texts are littered with references, and the history of LGBTQ+ is the same group fighting for rights since forever.
Many cultures feel it is perfectly normal, and considered it expected that some people presented as different than their biological sex.
It's completely fictional that any gender or sexual minority is new or unique in the modern era.
I mean this gets complicated. Is cross dressing trans? Because cross dressers doesn't necessarily identify as another sex. Where does an effiminate male stand or a tomboy? What does someone get labled if they identify but don't otherwise want to take the trappings?
and whataboutism rears its ugly head
ha true
what exactly am I whataboutisming about?
uh, you don't need surgery to be trans
or be intersex. this is sorta been what at least part of this conversation has been about. I mentioned in another post but my understanding about modern trans would be a persons right to determine what their gender is which does not have to be the same as their sex. Im honestly not sure about my own understanding.
So then explain what you meant. Why is being trans before surgical augmentation going to be difficult, if you agree that you don't need surgery to be trans. Make that make sense, cause it sounds like a transmedicalist shit take
It means there is little you can do about it at that point. Its like people dreamed of flight before planes but the dream was only realized once the technology was there.
Not every trans person wants or needs surgery, we are not a monolith of gender. Yet once more you are insinuating that surgery is like some wright brothers fever dream. For some, just living and being accepted as their gender is the goal. Implying that without surgery, there's little you can do about it, is fucking rude at best, and transmedicalist bullshit at worst. You admit you know very little, yet here you are telling trans people about their experience. You should stop now.
ok. you have to understand there was cross dressing for a long time. so it gets back to is cross dressing trans or whatnot and maybe in some cases but not in others. So if someone identifies as the opposite gender of their sex but does not emulate the gender in any way it sorta becomes moot. Its like just in their heart.
Stop associating crossdressing with transgender people you fucking asshole
stop? that was the first mention and if you had any nuance you would see that what im saying is if a person is trans and takes no action to emulate their prefered gender then are they trans. Basically what is trans then. Can you define simply and succinctly.
Fucking Liar. You gonna pretend this isn't you?
and
Which makes your comment to me the third time you've implied gender is about the clothing. I'm looking at all the other fucked up things you've said in this thread, and I'm flagging every questionable thing. FUCK. OFF.
Thats you man. This is a conversation. With several people. Not everything is an absolute. I have given a definition of trans several times as I understand it but you specifically avoided it. I honestly get suspicious of folks like yourself. Your offended by any conversation around trans and treat trans like some sacred cow or like electrolytes from idiocracy. You easily start throwing insults around and it makes me feel like your a shill. Hey I will jump into conversations and be all over the place and treat everything as offensive and purposefully take things out of context as absolutes. This way people will associate this type of behavior as being what trans folks are like. Maybe im wrong but I am conversing myself in good faith and as honestly as I know how. Im going to support human rights which includes peoples rights to be who they want to be and that will be regardless of the experience I have on the web around topics like this. So hey be mad at me or whatever and flag away but im not going to flag yours. Even though you are insulting and swearing at me. Mainly because I moderate my stuff by blocking not reporting. Although I will not block you either as I do feel you are a real person atm despite my suspicions.
and there we are. We have arrived at the point where transgender people are expected treat you nicely, even when you insult them, and badly explain their existence to them. Take the downvotes as a hint, you are not conversing in good faith and everyone sees it. Signed, the shill for Big Trans apparently hahahah wtf dude
I have not insulted you or anybody even once. Not a single swear. Yet you specifically insulted me with swears several times. You again do not put your definition in so im leaning more and more shill. You want to just push being slighted and some sort of general umbridge without any meaningful dialogue. Oh and I don't think you are a shill for big trans. I think you are a shill for anti trans. A false flag type of thing. Make people think trans folks are like you because you are not protraying yourself well.
You don't get to tell people when they feel insulted. You also don't get to tell trans people what being trans is. In three separate comments you associate crossdressing with trans and intersex existences. But I throw a few f bombs and somehow thats worse?? get the fuck outta here hahahahah
Yeah, the trans person is a shill for anti-trans because they dont want some numbnut pushing anti-trans terf rhetoric. Totally makes sense.
Heres a decent timeline of trans history. If you hate wikipedia, there's the citations at the bottom to browse through. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_transgender_history
But spoiler alert: transgender people, intersex, non-binary and other genders have been around probably as long as we've existed. As far as recorded history, I'm gonna drop a fuckton of info below if anyone is curious about human history outside the gender binary.
A few archeological finds & early historical texts:
A list of the 10 earliest recorded gender-affirming surgeries:
Many cultures around the world have recognized more than two genders:
There's so much more, but I'm tired now lol. Hopefully I made my point, which is we have a fuckton of lgbt+ history that no one knows about cause it's not taught. It doesn't help that the anti-lgbt+ propaganda likes to postulate that this is all some new-fangled fad, which it is clearly not. It's our history.
Some of these fit and some don't. At least to my understanding of modern trans. Many of the gender affirming surgeries were done in the gender assigned. Its actually the few cases were gender was assigned at birth instead of going with the general rule that the gender was the same as the sex. Third section makes sense at least to the limit of how much the cultures are understood. First section is a mixed bag. Gods and other fictional figures have been intersex and that is something at least most people should be aware of. Its hard to say with the rest but most seem intersex things again as opposed to individuals choosing their gender.
Well part of your problem is your comparing a time where we barely had rights let alone a language for ourselves up against a modern trans reality. All of the gender-affirming surgeries I listed were done by adults at their own behest. Also, this is a history rundown where I mostly focused on trans individuals, not intersex individuals, BUT, historically, most exceptions to the gender binary were all thrown together into single categories back then. In hindsight, sure, a lot of these cultural third gender classifications sound confusing, inaccurate, and too broad a category for our present understanding. But they were working with what knowledge they had at the time
Im not doing the comparison. Someone else brought it up. I don't think it matters one wit what happened historically. Historically people were enslaved and unfortunately still are. Its about bodily autonomy to me.
Well it matters to some of us, a lot actually. I spent most of my youth in self-loathing, thinking there was something wrong with me because I learned nothing in school about gender and sexuality other than the binary. The relief at not only finally understanding myself but that others have felt the same way is indescribable. LGBT+ history is human history. And when people are screaming that I shouldn't exist and that "trans is a fad" or "a modern lifestyle choice", well, now I have the knowledge that throughout a lot of our history many cultures realized, without the aid of science or politicians or history books or leftists, that sex and gender are not a binary.
I guess this is different experiences with different education systems throughout the country. Im pretty old and I was taught about non xx, xy conditions in both health classes and biology. Now granted over time you forget much of the details. So things like this don't seem hidden to me. Now granted particular bodies that have been found not so much but im not sure when the particular archeological discoveries where made. Some may be after I was in high school. I still see them having little bearing on the modern notion of choosing ones gender as opposed to it being the same as ones sex (with intersex people by and large being in one and just trying to fit in). All the same I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone else. When it comes to bathrooms and sprots teams we could always get rid of the distinctions anyway. Small ones have usually been either or sex with a lock for privacy and larger ones just need the floor to ceiling style stalls. Mens teams have for a long time allowed anyone who can compete we just get rid of the men/women thing and do leagues like we do now. A, AA, AAA or whatever.
.... history has little bearing on modern knowledge? Are you trolling me right now? Who says "history has no bearing" and actually means it. It took us this long to have a modern notion of sex and gender, because we've been trying to have an understanding of it for thousands of years. Take a wild, homophobic stab in the dark as to why it took this long.
Actually, seeing all your other replies in here I'm thinking this is too much trolling to be a real conversation. I'm going to go cause I really don't think you're asking in good faith at this point.
I don't know as I did not say that. I said:
"I guess this is different experiences with different education systems throughout the country. Im pretty old and I was taught about non xx, xy conditions in both health classes and biology. Now granted over time you forget much of the details. So things like this don't seem hidden to me. Now granted particular bodies that have been found not so much but im not sure when the particular archeological discoveries where made. Some may be after I was in high school. I still see them having little bearing on the modern notion of choosing ones gender as opposed to it being the same as ones sex (with intersex people by and large being in one and just trying to fit in). All the same I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone else. When it comes to bathrooms and sprots teams we could always get rid of the distinctions anyway. Small ones have usually been either or sex with a lock for privacy and larger ones just need the floor to ceiling style stalls. Mens teams have for a long time allowed anyone who can compete we just get rid of the men/women thing and do leagues like we do now. A, AA, AAA or whatever."
which is not a generality. I really don't get how I could be using whataboutism as I did not even bring up the whole historical aspect but just responded to it. I do wonder though if folks are seeing complete conversations and indeed if I am. I have noticed a think where I get notifications but then I can't see them in the threads. This makes me wonder if I or others are seeing all the conversations. Some of the replies I get here sound like I brought up some sort of trans is not historically supported thing and as I have said. I did not even bring that up as for me the history does not matter as historical stuff can be bad (if you saw my slavery remark). Its about bodily autonomy for me. Now as for why myself or others are may not be seeing everything its either something about the federation system but it could also be (at least for me) because I have blocked domains, magazines, sites, and folks. So maybe I did that to myself.