Monero's Home: XMPP vs Matrix (video) (video.simplifiedprivacy.com)

submitted 1 year ago by ShadowRebel@monero.town to c/monero@monero.town

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Monero's home is right now on Matrix. I'm disputing that. This is a video follow-up with some of the replies from last time.

If you are new, XMPP and Matrix are two competing federated end-to-end encrypted messengers. XMPP is far better, on server cost decentralization, speed over Tor, degoogled push notifications, multi-identities, and overall privacy. So if Matrix is inferior centralized bloatware, why is it more popular? Especially among XMR techies, who should in theory understand these concepts.

This brand new video gives a quick overview of the technical reasons that XMPP is the gold standard king of federation. And it briefly discusses how Matrix manages to push it’s agenda: https://video.simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp-vs-matrix-why-matrix-sucks/

Some critics will say that “Matrix is a complete package, while XMPP is fragmented”. This is essentially propaganda, because all the XMPP clients interact (Dino, Gajim, conversations, monocles). The only one that doesn’t interact is OTR encryption from pidgin which provides an alternative for hardcore cypherpunks who want to destroy the encryption keys when the conversation is done. So because one single client has an alternative use case, the Matrix cheerleaders want us to fill out Google Captcha spyware to register on Matrix.org because it costs so much to self-host.

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[-] k4r4b3y@mitra.karapara.net 2 points 1 year ago

Quite one-sided video. Many things you list as negatives in the Matrix's column are simply "not the whole truth". For example: "matrix requires captcha", "matrix requires email"---these are not true for all the existing homeservers. You may find a homeserver that's open for registration that doesn't force you to train google's machine vision AI nor give up an email.

Another "not the whole truth" is that "dendrite freezes and doesn't let you join big rooms". I have been using my own dendrite homeserver for the last 2 years, and while it may be true that I had some "freezes" when I tried to join some software support communities, in the end (after a few minutes) I always managed to join in, and never got locked out of the discussion.

Apart from all of that, xmpp's multi-device e2ee is also a mess. You make it sound like it is a piece of cake---it ain't.

[-] ShadowRebel@monero.town 1 points 1 year ago

The majority of matrix servers do require google & email though, especially when compared to xmpp.

as far as dendrite goes, we're talking about using Tor & a degoogled phone without google push notifications. can you honestly tell me that matrix is not slower than XMPP here?

As far as xmpp e2ee multi-device, you're right that it's not perfect. I agree with your criticism, but it's BETTER than matrix.

[-] k4r4b3y@mitra.karapara.net 0 points 1 year ago

@ShadowRebel

>as far as dendrite goes, we’re talking about using Tor & a degoogled phone without google push notifications.

I have been doing that for years now, kiddo. CalyxOS user of 2 years, here---before that I have used GrapheneOS. Both without microG or any other google play compatibility layers.

I use Element Android with Orbot proxy. It is pretty usable. I get notifications, a-Okay. Nothing to fearmonger about there.

If xmpp is really better than matrix, then you shouldn't be needing these "half-truth" videos to spread its use.

Anyways. Do what you gotta do.

[-] silverpill@mitra.social 1 points 1 year ago

@k4r4b3y @ShadowRebel Matrix seems to be focusing on the needs of its corporate clients lately. Interesting projects like P2P matrix, low-bandwidth and portable identity are not getting attention. Instead, they are making OIDC mandatory:

https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/better-auth/

Over time I've become less enthusiastic about Matrix. I'm not saying we should ditch it, but it's good to have a FOSS-oriented alternative (XMPP), just in case.

[-] gvs@rebelbase.site 1 points 1 year ago

@simplex is quite interesting as well

[-] silverpill@mitra.social 0 points 1 year ago

@gvs @simplex @ShadowRebel @k4r4b3y True, but as far as I know there is a single team and single implementation, so it's not quite in the same league as Matrix and XMPP.

[-] gvs@rebelbase.site 1 points 1 year ago

True. But it offers better meta data protection than both of those. It's a tradeoff and not sure yet which I prefer.

[-] arcanicanis@were.social 1 points 1 year ago

Yep, it's similarly of why I've lost enthusiasm of Matrix, especially with my prior focus on XMPP over a decade prior. It was originally marketed as if Matrix was going to have full account portability, and I believe even be able to pop onto chats on remote servers if even your homeserver is down; but instead all we got was just another flashy webchat with a RESTful API and Double Ratchet support that federates. The reference client is a boat anchor of resources, compared to something like Conversations/Gajim in XMPP world. There's the reference server in Python, which has a Rust rewrite, while the focus of Dendrite was retconned to "ehh, this is more intended for embedded use, not really a full Synapse rewrite"; meanwhile there's an ecosystem of several highly-performant XMPP independent server implementations.

I jumped onto Matrix back in the days when it was the Vector.im client (before Riot rebranding, and then Element rebranding) and had rode that for some years, but instead I'm back exclusively to XMPP.

[-] arcanicanis@were.social 2 points 1 year ago

and further, it feels like Matrix just progressively becomes more of a mess, like piling on more infrastructure on top existing infrastructure, to sidestep some performance issues.

Essentially "Hey, let's pile on ANOTHER PostgreSQL database, on top of your existing Synapse installation, to hold state information for your client, so it's so much faster to sync up your rooms when you log into a new fresh client!"

Whereas, 9 years into the existence of a protocol, and the lead developer has to present at a developer conference as a 'groundbreaking change' that you can login and see your conversation history within a couple seconds finally: https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=601