Monero's Home: XMPP vs Matrix (video) (video.simplifiedprivacy.com)

submitted 1 year ago by ShadowRebel@monero.town to c/monero@monero.town

20 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Monero's home is right now on Matrix. I'm disputing that. This is a video follow-up with some of the replies from last time.

If you are new, XMPP and Matrix are two competing federated end-to-end encrypted messengers. XMPP is far better, on server cost decentralization, speed over Tor, degoogled push notifications, multi-identities, and overall privacy. So if Matrix is inferior centralized bloatware, why is it more popular? Especially among XMR techies, who should in theory understand these concepts.

This brand new video gives a quick overview of the technical reasons that XMPP is the gold standard king of federation. And it briefly discusses how Matrix manages to push it’s agenda: https://video.simplifiedprivacy.com/xmpp-vs-matrix-why-matrix-sucks/

Some critics will say that “Matrix is a complete package, while XMPP is fragmented”. This is essentially propaganda, because all the XMPP clients interact (Dino, Gajim, conversations, monocles). The only one that doesn’t interact is OTR encryption from pidgin which provides an alternative for hardcore cypherpunks who want to destroy the encryption keys when the conversation is done. So because one single client has an alternative use case, the Matrix cheerleaders want us to fill out Google Captcha spyware to register on Matrix.org because it costs so much to self-host.

top 20 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[-] k4r4b3y@mitra.karapara.net 2 points 1 year ago

Quite one-sided video. Many things you list as negatives in the Matrix's column are simply "not the whole truth". For example: "matrix requires captcha", "matrix requires email"---these are not true for all the existing homeservers. You may find a homeserver that's open for registration that doesn't force you to train google's machine vision AI nor give up an email.

Another "not the whole truth" is that "dendrite freezes and doesn't let you join big rooms". I have been using my own dendrite homeserver for the last 2 years, and while it may be true that I had some "freezes" when I tried to join some software support communities, in the end (after a few minutes) I always managed to join in, and never got locked out of the discussion.

Apart from all of that, xmpp's multi-device e2ee is also a mess. You make it sound like it is a piece of cake---it ain't.

[-] ShadowRebel@monero.town 1 points 1 year ago

The majority of matrix servers do require google & email though, especially when compared to xmpp.

as far as dendrite goes, we're talking about using Tor & a degoogled phone without google push notifications. can you honestly tell me that matrix is not slower than XMPP here?

As far as xmpp e2ee multi-device, you're right that it's not perfect. I agree with your criticism, but it's BETTER than matrix.

[-] k4r4b3y@mitra.karapara.net 0 points 1 year ago

@ShadowRebel

>as far as dendrite goes, we’re talking about using Tor & a degoogled phone without google push notifications.

I have been doing that for years now, kiddo. CalyxOS user of 2 years, here---before that I have used GrapheneOS. Both without microG or any other google play compatibility layers.

I use Element Android with Orbot proxy. It is pretty usable. I get notifications, a-Okay. Nothing to fearmonger about there.

If xmpp is really better than matrix, then you shouldn't be needing these "half-truth" videos to spread its use.

Anyways. Do what you gotta do.

[-] silverpill@mitra.social 1 points 1 year ago

@k4r4b3y @ShadowRebel Matrix seems to be focusing on the needs of its corporate clients lately. Interesting projects like P2P matrix, low-bandwidth and portable identity are not getting attention. Instead, they are making OIDC mandatory:

https://matrix.org/blog/2023/09/better-auth/

Over time I've become less enthusiastic about Matrix. I'm not saying we should ditch it, but it's good to have a FOSS-oriented alternative (XMPP), just in case.

[-] gvs@rebelbase.site 1 points 1 year ago

@simplex is quite interesting as well

[-] silverpill@mitra.social 0 points 1 year ago

@gvs @simplex @ShadowRebel @k4r4b3y True, but as far as I know there is a single team and single implementation, so it's not quite in the same league as Matrix and XMPP.

[-] gvs@rebelbase.site 1 points 1 year ago

True. But it offers better meta data protection than both of those. It's a tradeoff and not sure yet which I prefer.

[-] arcanicanis@were.social 1 points 1 year ago

Yep, it's similarly of why I've lost enthusiasm of Matrix, especially with my prior focus on XMPP over a decade prior. It was originally marketed as if Matrix was going to have full account portability, and I believe even be able to pop onto chats on remote servers if even your homeserver is down; but instead all we got was just another flashy webchat with a RESTful API and Double Ratchet support that federates. The reference client is a boat anchor of resources, compared to something like Conversations/Gajim in XMPP world. There's the reference server in Python, which has a Rust rewrite, while the focus of Dendrite was retconned to "ehh, this is more intended for embedded use, not really a full Synapse rewrite"; meanwhile there's an ecosystem of several highly-performant XMPP independent server implementations.

I jumped onto Matrix back in the days when it was the Vector.im client (before Riot rebranding, and then Element rebranding) and had rode that for some years, but instead I'm back exclusively to XMPP.

[-] arcanicanis@were.social 2 points 1 year ago

and further, it feels like Matrix just progressively becomes more of a mess, like piling on more infrastructure on top existing infrastructure, to sidestep some performance issues.

Essentially "Hey, let's pile on ANOTHER PostgreSQL database, on top of your existing Synapse installation, to hold state information for your client, so it's so much faster to sync up your rooms when you log into a new fresh client!"

Whereas, 9 years into the existence of a protocol, and the lead developer has to present at a developer conference as a 'groundbreaking change' that you can login and see your conversation history within a couple seconds finally: https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=601

[-] gvs@rebelbase.site 1 points 1 year ago

Matrix synapse can use unified push instead of Google notifications.

[-] ShadowRebel@monero.town 1 points 1 year ago

What pixel are you using? And what is your internet speed without tor/vpn? Cause if you're in a huge city with 1G and using a brand new pixel 7 then yeah you might be fine. But if you're in a rural area with a pixel 4, then xmpp may shine

[-] nice-nigger@nicecrew.digital 1 points 1 year ago

I AIN FUGGIH PLAYIH NIGGA YAW GON WAKE UP DEAD TOMORROW BITCH :niggy_ollie:

[-] opal@ap.maladaptive.art 1 points 1 year ago

@k4r4b3y @ShadowRebel
>after a few minutes
this should honestly never be acceptable for an instant-messaging platform

[-] k4r4b3y@mitra.karapara.net 0 points 1 year ago

@opal @ShadowRebel I agree. Do the tabulations. List the pros and cons, and see if you want to use matrix dendrite.

[-] opal@ap.maladaptive.art 1 points 1 year ago

@k4r4b3y @ShadowRebel dendrite does not solve this join-delay issue when joining rooms on remote servers, particularly rooms hosted at all on matrix.org (i.e. the DAG involves matrix.org in some way), because the weakest link is the bottleneck in the matrix protocol

[-] crab@monero.town 2 points 1 year ago

XMPP's current server implementations may be better, but I feel like its something Matrix will match in the future. I'm not very well educated on the topic, but Element being generally user friendly and having lots of features similar to Discord brings a massive audience to privacy respecting, federated, encrypted messaging which is a huge advantage for being able to message regular people. If Matrix's server matures to the point of XMPP in the future (and clients if they're not already), would XMPP have any advantages?

[-] tusker@monero.town 1 points 1 year ago

Great to see this conversation being started.

What we need is a decentralized IPFS or the like based encrypted messaging network where you can run a node and allocate resources, the network would auto purge oldest messages and longest inactive accounts as storage becomes limited. Anyone can start a chat room and it is all searchable. That way no one person has to host identifiable entry points.

[-] crab@monero.town 1 points 1 year ago

Moderation might be an issue with such a platform, who's responsible for cleaning spam, csam, etc? Giving someone that power will centralize the system anyways. The current federated system works pretty well in my opinion.

[-] opal@ap.maladaptive.art 1 points 1 year ago

@ShadowRebel
>OTR encryption from pidgin which provides an alternative for hardcore cypherpunks
cryptoanarchist here we moved on from otr ages ago because the parser is a fucking nightmare