347
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
347 points (96.3% liked)
World News
39034 readers
1395 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I find it interesting that everyone is calling this bad management when it's indicating one thing above all:
Productivity has well exceeded the requirements of the population.
People simply don't need to work that hard anymore, but all industrialized societies, even would-be socialists, simply can't stand the idea of letting the working class have leisure time.
UBI and robust social safety nets should have started with the industrial revolution. Every time a machine, computer, or now robots, UBI should have increased and been given to more people.
Tax the automation!! Have companies pay employee taxes for self scanners and all automation. Let the workers live, let the machines work.
I look at my own country of Portugal with a massive realestate prices bubble were more than half the youths only leave their parent's home after they're 30, more than 50% of recent graduates emigrating when they get their degrees and schools in certain areas lacking teachers because houses there are too expensive for a teacher salary, and think that maybe what China has there is actually good thing, not a bad thing.
Yeah, sure, "investors" are suffering, but why should the other 99% of people care?!
Portugal has preserved beautiful human-scale cities and villages, while most apartments in China are in concrete jungles of tower blocks - you really want to swap one for the other? Sure, solutions are needed, but not like that. Also the chinese housing bubble conned many ordinary people to invest multi-family life-savings, it's not a 1% thing.
You clearly have never been outside the touristic city centers if you think "Portugal has preserved beautiful human-scale cities and villages" or actually seen the massive destruction caused in any place that had even the most token amount of potential for Tourism were masses of skryscrapers were built (like in Albufeira) or just enormous beach or golf-resorts, or even the city centers were the locals were kicked out and the local businesses died because when every dwelling was turned into an AirBnB, those little neighbourhood shops selling everyday things lost most of their clients.
I'm sure living in the typical "beautiful" 8-story building from the 80s (with such horrible energy efficiency that its significantly colder indoors in Winter than in the equivalent place in Northern Europe) 1h away from the city center were the typical 30 year old lives with his or her parents because they can't afford their own place with the shit salaries they get from the only kind of work they can find - invariably a short-term contract - even with a bloody degree, makes them feel happy and all nice and warm inside (and people definitelly need that inside warmth when the house reaches 11 C indoors in Winter).
In one of those "horrible" cheap chinese appartments you really can't enjoy the beauty of the 80s-style fly-by-night-builder appartment built at a time when there were pretty much no building rules, in a residential neighbourhood with insuficient public transportation and having all the freedom and privacy you have when living in your parent's home in your 30s.
That chinese nightmare is horrible by itself, yet it's great by comparison with the even bigger nightmare created in lots of countries in the West as governments and central banks turned the housing markets into a money making machine for rentseeking investors, screwing everybody and anybody who wasn't already a realestate owner when they started doing it, so mostly the young but now things have reached such a bad point that small shops not in prime touristic places can't even afford to stay open because their rents have become crazy.
Sure, it's a fucking "paradise" out there for retired owner-occupiers who have cashed in on their overvalued house in the city and moved to the countryside. For the rest, not really - even young adult owner-occupier couples wanting to upsize because they would like to have children (and a 1-bedroom appartment won't do) can't because they can't afford the money to do so: their 1-bedroom is worth a stupid amount but the 2-bedroom is worth a stupid amount too and now they can't afford the difference.
(Unsurprisingly birth rates in Portugal are low and falling and it's now one of the 10 most aged countries in the World)
The pure fantasy of affording the absurd mortgage anywhere decent and also having children and actually having a life (a car, a holiday once a year or less, healthy food) were a significant factor in my partner and mine's recent decision to not have any children. Just not affordable in Spain. We don't have family to palm kids off on so, what are you going to do? Have kids and starve, give them a subsistence upbringing, or survive and keep our own heads above water?
The exact same thing is happenning in Portugal.
At least 2 decades of measures to pump up house prices (both by boosting the demand side and by limiting the supply side) leading the young adults to either leave the country of refraining from having children, leading to well below replacement birth rates, an aging population and all problems that come from it (I very much doubt that I'll ever have a state pension from Portugal).
And then on top of that the Global Warming Climate Models predict that almost all of Spain and Portugal (except near the coast) will become a literal desert.
Meanwhile the policians who passed lost of "pro realestate investor" measures to make themselves and their friends wealthier, all the while killing the life opportunities for the younger generations (and "younger" by now means "in your late 30s"), causing the massive age pyramid problems we're having, put on their most innocent *surprised Piachu* face when talking about the population ageing problem.
In between the countries becoming unaffordable to live and grow a family in for anybody not already well in their 40s and the desertification due to Global Warming we're completelly totally screwed here in the Iberian Peninsula.
I've traveled outside city centres, but neither to commuter towns nor beach resorts, so I'll believe you and get there is systemic imbalance.
I have lived six months in China, and literally cried when I cycled around new developments and saw the width of the concrete they were laying for roads. That was Shandong - quite similar landscape and climate to Portugal. Their planning is not all crazy, they also preserved some city centres, build metros, and maybe those roads allow potential space for trams or bicycles, but now it's mostly many lanes of cars, lost the human-scale markets, and I doubt most tower blocks are energy-efficient (anybody know?).
Some people like 'modern' concrete lifestyle, the problem is the scale of such construction, and no choice of alternative styles of development (in cities like Glasgow where such construction was a fashion decades ago, now they are demolishing towers due to social failures). Also, many graduates in China have poor job or housing security, there has also been mass over-production of degrees.
(p.s. now I'm in northern europe in a 1930s house, it's very cold in winter as can't afford good heating, even with PhD, will get out woolly hats and electric jacket to keep coding at computer ... but at least every house is different here, scope to adapt).
Well, as I said, the point is not that the kind of housing providion they're doing in China is great, the point is that it has become shit all over the West (and whilst I mentioned my homeland, Portugal, I also lived in England and it suffered from most of the same problems).
Shockingly even the dehumanised mechanism of housing provision in China might beat the "extremelly insuficient affordable housing provision whilst demand explodes due to realestate being used as investment assets" we seen in many places in the West, mainly because homelessness is even worse that living in a cookie-cutter appartment in a cold oversized appartment building in lifeless suburbia.
They're both problematic, in different ways, but at least the kind of problem they have in China isn't going to kill the country in the mid- and long-term by pushing half the young adults to leave the country as soon as they get a degree and pushing birth rates even lower in a country which already had low birth rates and has one of the most aged populations in the World.
I do wonder what's going to happen to all that property as China's population hits 700,000,000 or so
Go take a look at Detroit
Looks fine, why?
A lot of developed countries are going to see a decrease in population starting in the next 20 years and that will probably go on until the end of this century.
Our growth-minded economics needs to shift. Maybe we need to focus on how to gracefully decline. A decrease in revenue does not mean a company is not profitable. So that mindset needs to change.
We really need to focus on geriatric care, there will be a lot more old people than young people, so we need some way to get care to all the old people without over-burdening the young. More robots? Or robot-assisted care so that is it not so taxing on a nurse? I recently had to help a neighbor who was in declining health and mind, and man, I do not want myself to be in that state burdening my children and family. So we need some legislature to allow assisted suicide for those with terminal illness so I can go and die with dignity and grace.
Then we need a new de-construction industry that is focused on removing old buildings and old infrastructure and restoring the land back to its natural state. Otherwise we will have a plague of urban decay if that's not managed well.
Maybe if they actually built these things up to code it would take longer to build them in the first place. These things tend to collapse.
If one crumbles, they can just use the one next door. They have a surplus! /s
That may have been true if this resulted from the operation of a non corrupt free market, but this is instead China.
Housing does not have the conditions to be a Free Market because any one piece of land has a single owner who has the monoply of deciding what's done with it.
Sure, you can make as many houses you want ... in places were nobody wants to live because there are no jobs there ... but in practice the housing market is restricted by the ownership of land in those places were people do want to live in (have to live in, even, because the jobs are there), which means the supply of the most essential "raw material" for realestate - the actual land to build the housing in, situated were people need a place to live in - is heavilly restriced.
(In fact if you look at China's problem, with all the "ghost cities" made by the now near bankrupt building companies, they're exactly because they tried to work around that huge market barrier to entry by building cities in the middle of nowhere, were land was cheap and easilly available, on the expectation that both people and jobs would come there, and that didn't work)
Free Markets can only happen in markets were new supply can easilly come online in response to things like price increases or lowered quality by established market players, and that's markets for things like soap or teddy bears, not things were supply growth is heavilly restricted by land ownership or other similar high market barriers to entry.
Free Market Theory would only ever be applicable in markets with no or very low barriers to entry and only if market actors were rational, and Economists of the Behaviour Economics domain have proven that humans aren't rational economic actors, not even close: that pseudo-economics bollocks you're parroting is not only wholly unapplicable to the housing market (which has nowhere the low barriers to entry needed for there to de facto be freedom for market actors) but has even been disproven more than 2 decades ago (funilly enough by a guy who recently got a Nobel Prize in Economics, though for different work) when it was shown experimentally and in many different ways that homo economicus is not at all a good model for human economic behaviour.
This was my point. Thanks for expanding on it.
Is China having a homelessness crisis, economic collapse, or famine?
Yes.
Source?