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submitted 2 years ago by andrewrgross@slrpnk.net to c/memes@slrpnk.net

West Coast baby

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[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 25 points 2 years ago

The only thing I don't see is how it would fix people being homeless. Many homeless are unable to be properly housed because they have mental illnesses, trauma, etc. If you put them in an apartment without extensive further help, many will get back on the street and/or destroy the apartment. You can't solve their problems with just providing housing.

[-] SinAdjetivos@beehaw.org 20 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
  1. Shelter is critical to survival. The general rule of thumb places it as a higher priority than food or water. Arguing against people having access to reliable shelter, regardless the rational, is arguing for deliberately killing them.

  2. The "they're defective and will destroy whatever they live. Don't let them in!!!" is just calling them cockroaches in a different way. It's fear mongering nonsense and there is no evidence to support that claim.

  3. You're assuming correlation does not equal causation. It turns out being homeless, even for a relatively short period of time, is devastating to mental health and even if not the root cause (IE genetic predeposition, TBIs, etc.) it can strongly exasperate them and create some nasty co-morbidities.

Being repeatedly assulted and or raided by police, neighborhood vigilantes and other desperate people is an extremely quick path towards PTSD/other general anxiety disorders. The aggressive de-humunization that occurs can be a potent factor in antisocial disorders. Direct health impacts like physical battery, hypo/hyperthermia, illness, etc. can cause more detect brain damage such as TBIs, etc. Schizophrenia is usually fairly treatable, schizophrenia with PTSD amplified paranoia much less so.

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[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 17 points 2 years ago

There's multiple groups of homeless people.

There's the long term homeless, who often suffer from issues like mental illness, and short term homeless, who usually don't.

High housing prices absolutely causes people to become homeless when they lose their job, become addicted to drugs, etc.

Being homeless is itself traumatic, and exacerbates most issues homeless people have. Affordable housing and giving homeless people an apartment aren't a panacea, but it does prevent a ton of issues for newly homeless people.

[-] Chr0nos1@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I don't know if they're included in the groups you mentioned, but there is also a vehicle dwelling homeless as well. Last I checked, there are over 3 million Americans living full time in a vehicle, whether it be a car, a bus, a van, an RV, or another type of vehicle. Some of them, it's by choice, but for some of them, that's all they can afford because housing prices have skyrocketed in so many places.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 1 points 2 years ago

I don't see how or where I said I am against giving people homes.

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 years ago

when you said...

The only thing I don't see is how it would fix people being homeless.

Many homeless are unable to be properly housed because they have mental illnesses, trauma, etc.

If you put them in an apartment without extensive further help, many will get back on the street and/or destroy the apartment.

You can't solve their problems with just providing housing.

That says to me, four times, that you are against giving people homes. Could you clarify how each of those points is a positive?

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Literally none of this says: don't give people a home. My point is giving them a home is not enough, it won't solve the problem.

Is this a weird English language thing? Is this a Lemmy or an internet thing? People seem to deliberately put stuff into posts that aren't said.

It's even in the text you quoted from me that my opinion is just giving them housing won't solve the problem.

How the fuck does that say "don't give them a home"???

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago

I think the missing context is that when you write with majority negative phrasing, people assume your argument is against it.

Consider: "You have to cover apples in sugar and put them in pastry, and then add custard to make me want to consider eating them!"

This sounds like you hate apples, not that you like apple pie.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 3 points 2 years ago

I thought the situation was more like: "If you got apples you can make an apple pie". And I was: "No, just apples make a bad pie, you also need the other ingredients". And then people wrote: "How dare you hating apple pie!"

[-] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 17 points 2 years ago

Are you familiar with the "Housing first" model? It posits that even for people who need medical or living assistance, having shelter, a bed, a bathroom, a refrigerator, and a permanent address will allow them and whoever is providing support to deal with compounding factors and receive regular visits, Conversely, attempts to treat something like dementia or substance abuse on the street are next to impossible.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yes I know. And all housing projects I know about pre-select the people they give a home to, often only take in those who are already in the welfare system and all these projects offer extensive additional help.

I feel like some people deliberately interpret stuff into my post just so that they can get angry (not you but, I got some really angry messages).

So to make it extra clear: Giving people a home is great! There definitely should be a home for everyone, it's a human right!

But just giving people a home will not solve the problem with homeless! Putting people with severe mental illnesses, debt, etc. simply into a home does not work.

[-] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 years ago

If someone's a jerk, don't forget that there's a "report" button for a reason.

[-] Elivey@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

A big issue with different social workers and such trying to reach and help homeless people is trying to find them. If they have a fixed address, you know where they will likely be. This makes services to take them to doctor appointments, get them welfare cheques, disability service notifications etc. all become reliable.

[-] Moneo@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

I don't think it's fair to paint homelessness as an urban planning issue just because housing is a part of the solution to both problems.

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago

is that truly the case, or just a pervasive urban legend?

which studies support this theory?

[-] Knightfox@lemmy.one 2 points 2 years ago

I think between their argument and your own, yours is the one in more need of citation. Which is more likely, that giving a house to everyone will solve homelessness or that some people have problems beyond just being homeless? He's not saying that it wouldn't help some people, he's just saying that there would still be some number of people who need help beyond this.

[-] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
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[-] brb@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago

giving a house to everyone will solve homelessness

Pretty much yeah. This is what Finland did.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

No it did not. Finland helped about half of the homeless people. And that's a very generous estimate because it's only those homeless people who are actually accounted for.

https://www.ara.fi/en-US/Materials/Homelessness_reports/Homelessness_in_Finland_2022(65349)#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%202022,a%20decrease%20of%20185%20people.

This is because they only select those who can be housed and are already part of the welfare system. It's also not just putting people in an apartment. There is still a lot of drug and debt counseling and mental help provided in the background.

And that's for the model country for the housing first approach.

[-] brb@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago

Homelessness in Finland is bit different to most countries. You are counted as homeless even if you are living at friend's place or in an institution.

There are only around 300 actual homeless people. Everyone is given a place to sleep and live at.

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[-] Elivey@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

You can't solve all their problems with just providing housing, but it would some.

One thing I think people fail to see often when considering programs like this is the generational effect. A program to provide people housing might be considered a failure to some people because many may still choose to do drugs, will ruin their apartment, be violent to their neighbors, etc., some honestly valid concerns. But consider the shockwave 60 years down the line, for the next generations.

Homelessness and drug abuse are generational. Think of a person who would have been homeless who has a child. Was mentally ill and didn't take very good of the apartment, but not enough to not raise the child. Despite this, that child now has astronomically better chances at a decent life than if they had been raised on the streets or put into foster care just because they had housing and stability

You continue generation after generation, and though many people will be considered "failures" of programs like this, the rate of them continues to decrease because the success stories are now out of the system, out of the cycle.

The problem is half measures, which is what we have today. Bandaid fixes that don't get to the root of the issues homeless people deal with, keeping them in the cycle but doing... Something? So they can say look we care...

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this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2023
891 points (93.9% liked)

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