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Hamas says it has taken ‘dozens’ of Israelis hostage
(www.nbcnews.com)
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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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What is your description of fascism then?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Notably, when comparing with Hamas, 1) religion is of secondary consideration in fascism, and 2) facism tends to create cults of personality such as Hitler, Putin, etc. Fascism will always put party before everything, unlike religiously motivated groups. And in Islam particularly, it's difficult for one charismatic leader to create a cult of personality because such a leader is always standing in the shadow of Mohammed.
Most importantly, fascism involves a comprehensive transformation of society, with a particular focus on military expansion. It's very difficult for a group under siege to be fascist as they simply don't have the option for expansion.
Jihadis share many similar aspects with fascists, authoritarians, etc, but those are means to an end. In fascism, the means ARE the end, there's no real plan, the fascist dictator just tries to ride the wave of nationalism as long as they can.
Palestinians all over the world chant "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" at demonstrations. This is a reference to lands that include Israel. So there is a desire for a non-democracy to expand into the territory of a democracy. This feeling is so pervasive in Palestinian culture it's chanted in demonstrations on the other side of the world. Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
There have even been calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews by Palestinians living in western countries as well. "Push them into the sea, wipe them off the map" kinds of things. Why would someone not even living there be saying these things if it's not a societal transformation?
If you look at the actual propaganda, very little references religion. It's mostly about how the land rightfully belongs to Palestinians. Going on and on about the 1948 map, the Ottoman Empire etc. The only thing I see that's somewhat religious is references to the times of the Crusades. "We'll win in time like we did during the Crusades." But note that's also a reference to past greatness, one of the most defining characteristics of fascism. I mean where does the word fascism come from?
Yes and what exactly is the plan in this current aggression by Hamas? Do you feel like what they're doing right now is part of a real plan? Nope. What is the plan for the many rocket attacks Hamas has done in the past? There is no plan. Hamas needs to kill Israelis to keep power. Do you think the Hamas leadership does these things because Allah told them to? Or do they do it to prevent their followers from leaving Hamas and joining some other group that is willing to execute attacks on Israel?
That's the nature of fascism. You can get control over people by making them hate but you can't allow that hatred to dissipate or you lose control. Hamas attacks Israel because if they don't, they lose power. Sure they'll use religious terminology to make their actions seem more legitimate to their followers, but in the end it boils down to blood and soil, promises of restoring past greatness, use of violence to maintain power.
That's such a stretch they should call you Mr Incredible.
I don't know why I bothered, I knew even as I was typing that you weren't interested in learning. I knew you were going to pick as many individual parts of that definition as you could and try to force the square peg of Hamas into the round hole of fascism. Because the alternative is that maybe you were wrong about something, and oh no we can't have that.
We really need to do a better job funding our schools.
He thinks religion isn't the end goal, but instead a tool used by fascists leaders whose end goal is actually that: fascism.
You think the people calling the shots are actually devout and that fascism is a tool to achieve some religious goal.
The former is a safer bet, since it isn't predicated on needing to buy into the idea that the sort of people who orchestrate these acts are inherently principled and devout people who just have a very unfortunate interpretation of Islam.
Call it fascist+ with a fancy name if you will, but it's nothing to get so worked up over.
There is no fascism though. Just some similar elements.
It's definitely worth getting worked up over the zoomer tendency to call damn near everything fascism. Even the Barbie movie made fun of it. It's watering the term down to meaninglesness. Which is very dangerous when there are real actual fascists on the rise in the world.
We really need to do a better job in teaching better manners.
When you have no logical response to something a person says to you, do you consider it good form to resort to... well ad hominem sounds too classy for what you wrote.... Shit tier elementary school "You dumb I'm smart" asshat behaviour?
Learn to do better at the conversation stuff mate.
I know when actually arguing is hopeless. Literally nothing I could say would change your mind at all, no matter how much I prove you wrong, so why waste the effort? Better to just insult you, at least that's a little fun and low effort.
Yeah that'll happen when you approach everything as if it's an argument and while being incapable of making a cohesive argument.
Are you trying to suggest that you don't want to argue? That you might be open to learning something new?
Wait, wait, let me do your part
Sorry, I spaced on the last bit but it's always a mad libs of haughty insults.
Okay my turn: can you possibly imagine being wrong in any way? Have you ever been wrong about anything?
Now you: you're a sad individual who's trying to distract from your total lack of an argument. I completely proved you wrong in every way and you know it.
Then me: so that would be a "no"
Then you: fuck off, troll
Then me: lol
That's usually where this ends. Hopefully saved us a few back and forth.
What is it you think I'm going to learn from anything you've typed? The only thing you seem to want people to "learn" as that you're right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong without you providing any kind rational reason for this.
You stated that it's the nature of fascism for there to be no real plan. I stated that Hamas has no real plan other than to use nationalistic and genocidal fervor to remain in power. We're seeing genocidal actions being celebrated (or at the very least rationalized) by Palestinians. I don't see a lot of Palestinians outright condemning the actions of Hamas, either out of sympathy for them or out of fear of them. This is suggestive of a fascist society.
You could blow my argument out the water by explaining what the long term plan of Hamas is. But there is none. Because they're fascist and having power over people is the goal.
So instead of anything countering long list of fascist characteristics of Hamas and Palestinian society, it's just "YOU'RE WRONG WHY DON'T YOU ADMIT IT!!!!!"
Really? You promise?
Sure but with the caveat that it's a plan that will actually work (not just propaganda material) and it's not just a callback to the "glorious past" of the Crusades (which is also propaganda).
Think pre-crusades
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
By far the central objective is a Palestinian state that encompasses all or most of present day Israel and the defeat or obliteration of Israeli Jews. It is a very clear objective that hasn't wavered in its central premise, just in scope.
To put it simply, they want a Israel to be a Muslim caliphate. It's a very clear long term goal, and their plan to get there is jihad. And it's a sincerely held goal, not just propaganda (though they do of course use propaganda to further that goal).
Notably, their goal is solely regional, not endlessly expansionist like most fascist regimes.
Another, separate massive difference from fascism is the lack of strongman political organization:
So you're saying wanting to obliterate Jews is evidence they are not fascist?
Do you always take fascists at their word? Do you think charters and constitutions are always 100% the true intentions of the writers?
And even the excerpts you compiled have fascist rhetoric all over the place.
Call to violent fervor. But the kind that sounds vaguely religious!
They're demanding people to consider their political cause to be a religious cause. Not even being subtle about it. "We declare that blood and soil is a religious thing!"
Again how are they going to actually accomplish this? How is Hamas going to actually going to overpower the IDF? Do you think that's an actual real possibility?
Since Hamas isn't actually capable of doing this everything they claim they want for a future government is pure fantasy and just propaganda designed to help recruitment. They can offer everyone unicorns, blow jobs, and endless lines of coke once Israel is defeated. Whatever brings in recruits.
You mean that bullshit that allows the Hamas leadership to live large off of donations from bitter Arab billionaires outside of Palestine, safe from any risk from the IDF while their people get killed when the IDF retaliates against their rocket attacks? Form hierarchical power structures is a fascist thing too. And which of Majlis al-Shura, General Consultative Council, and Politburo are religious in nature? Ah yes the great Politburo, that's keeping in accordance with the Islamic traditions!
Basically it's just all blood and soil shit, with a heaping helping of we will go back to Islamic tradition (someday! ;)) but first die for us in our never ending conflict with those evil people over there! Because Islam and stuff, yo.
They're not quoting religious texts, not mentioning any religious sites. Not giving any religious justification for what they're doing. They're just saying "this is a religious struggle because we said so!"
And I can't stress this enough, these are the words of fascists, you can't swallow the things they say as if they're dealing with people truthfully. Like all fascists they give lip service to religion to legitimize their power.
I mean if you want to go there, then you can argue that literally anything is literally anything. Hamas is actually communist. Hamas is actually anarcho-capitalist.
When Hamas says they want to eradicate the Israeli Jews and establish a Muslim caliphate in Israel, and all of their actions support that claim, I believe them. Why wouldn't I?
Correct. Which is not fascism. It's religious zealotry.
Yes, they absolutely are, they do it all the time, they can barely go 3 sentences without quoting Mohammad or the Quran. It's just not directly reflected in the Wikipedia article much. Check the sources though.
They are true believers. Sure, they also want power and they are also vicious racists, but that is secondary to their (particularly violent) interpretation of Islam and jihad.
Totally circular reasoning!
You: "they're fascists"
Me: "no they're not, and here's proof from their own words"
You: "you can't trust anything they say because they're fascists!"
It's Russels Teapot, it's proving a negative, it's conspiracy theory logic. Any proof is just dismissed as lies. And how do you know they're lying about not being fascists? Because they're fascists, and fascists lie!
They're just not, dude. They're terrible, but there's many different forms of terrible. They're not all fascism.
From your logic, nothing is fascism. The Nazis were the Nationalist Socialist party, therefore communist therefore not fascist! If the Nazis called themselves the Christian Nationalist Socialist Party would that make them a theocratic movement? Do you think North Korea is a democracy because they call themselves the Democratic People's Republic of Korea? Do you always believe all authoritarians everywhere all the time?
Fascists lie. I mean they're willing to murder people in the millions, why would you think lying would be a bridge too far for them?
You don't know a fascist by what they claim to be. You know them from their actions and the emotional manipulations they use. These guys are all blood and soil in their own manifesto.
When you're the king you don't have to call yourself the king. When you're a religious movement you don't have to demand people to consider you to be a religious movement. Hamas declaring that their blood and soil narrative is a religious conflict gives away the game. They wouldn't need to make such demands if their politcal intentions were implicitly religious.
Circular reasoning is when I ask for a reasonable plan for Hamas' future that wasn't propaganda and you provide me with propaganda directly from Hamas. I point out that fascist narrative even in their own propaganda documents and you declare it circular reasoning because I'm repeating the fact that fascists lie. Even your "proof" that Hamas isn't fascist is dripping with well worn fascist narratives.
And so we're back to the point of the circle where you're again just saying "YOU'RE WRONG WHY DON'T YOU JUST ADMIT IT!"