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They were told to leave their homes. They did. They were still bombed
(www.middleeasteye.net)
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this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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Hamas are animals. Abducting children and internationals. These last few days have shown they do not deserve sympathy. Watching Palestinians cheer when rockets get launched just proves my point.
So instead you are cheering when civilians on the other side are being killed. Great logic. I hope you feel morally superior and can sleep better at night.
Where did he cheer that Palestinian civilians got killed?
One simple rule to achieve peace and stability is diplomatic talk. You don't use violence as answer.
Attacking civilians is also plain and simple terrorism. Hamas proved with this action they are not worth more than terrorists.
So we're in agreement that this is essentially two terrorist states fighting each other? And the biggest losers in all of this will be the innocent Israeli and Palestinian citizens who just want to live their lives in peace. Meanwhile Hamas and the Israeli state get to go back and forth playing the their sick game of race-to-the-bottom-of-the-morality-barrel trying to blow each other to smithereens.
If you're 93 today, then you were about 18 years old when Israel became an autonomous nation (in 1948). Before that time, the Jews in the area were simply terrorists without a state.
I'm glad you know that Israel was formed in 1948 but your grasp on the rest of the history is poor.
Here's your chance to tell me the real history, then.
I wouldn't call it a "real" history, just a richer history that leads to a more nuanced understanding of the situation, starting with the Ottoman Empire's tax reform efforts prior to WWI leading to the fellahin legally conveying their land to town leaders to avoid taxation, the descendants of said leaders considering themselves as landed gentry and who had little connection to the land, in fact most of them were living the high life in Beirut and who were more than happy to sell land to Jews. Or the state of Arab intellectual thought as it transitioned from pan-arabism to regional nationalism. Or the role the Arab League played in manipulating many Palestinians to act against their interests in the leadup to and during the 1948-1949 war (Arabs that ignored the Arab League are now, by and large, Israeli citizens, though they have legit gripes and deserve a fair constitutional government that protects them from the vageries of the volatile Israeli political process). Or how Arab nations allowed/encouraged pogroms to occur against their Jewish residents both before and after the creation of the State of Israel, persecution that (surprise surprise) led Arabic-speaking Jews to flee to the mandate/Israel. I'm NOT saying that Israel did no wrong. I'm just irritated as fuck by Israeli AND Palestinian apologists that ignore the role their side played in making the situation what it is today.
Am I wrong to be a little irritated by the fact that your previous wording was that my "grasp on the rest of the history is poor", but when asked to explain things, you seem to think that I simply lacked nuance? Because it seems to me in that case that your initial response saying that my grasp was poor was also lacking nuance.
I'm not a middle east expert, or even an enthusiast. I would even flatly state that my grasp of the history in the region is poor, and that my knowledge on the subject lacks nuance... However, before I made the comment, I did a bit of research, for example, reading the Wikipedia article on Israel and its history, and I did leave quite a bit of nuance out intentionally, for example, completely ignoring the fact that Palestine was governed by British Mandate at the time. But I don't think I misrepresented the facts in some fundamental way. It's just good to keep things short, punchy, and factual online.
To be clear, I have read your entire comment, and it is very interesting. It adds a lot of nuance. I didn't expect you to put so much effort into your comment, and I appreciate the effort.
Sorry, this whole mess has me upset, and I haven't been able to reach an Israeli friend of mine. And I'm sick of one-sided hate, usually coming from ill-informed "liberals" that act like the Palestinians are justified in their violence like it's a US race riot instead of absolute bloody mayhem, who have never met a member of Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood in real life and seen the murderous hate in their eyes, who never got the soles of their shoes sticky from blood in the streets from a suicide bombing in the Dolphinairum that wiped out over 150 lives in less than a second, who never contemplated the only reason that they are alive right now is because they stopped for a cup of coffee and missed their bus which then exploded killing everyone aboard. Israel is absolutely wrong in a lot of its policies, needs a fair constitution that treats its citizens equally, and like every other country has made bloody terrible decisions from time to time. But the ahistorical propaganda successes that Palestinians have had with bleeding hearts that are supposedly educated absolutely pisses me off. "Israel oppresses us", yes, because you let your house be used by snipers, yes, because you officially sanctioned bombers to come murder people, etc. It doesn't justify flattening the Gaza Strip, but to think that Israel is just going to want to talk about it is patently absurd.
You are saying that the post holocaust Jews were terrorists? Wtf?
I was talking about before that, but in general, I'll just say that whatever the truth is, you should simply accept as the truth. There were certainly refugees from the holocaust who became literal terrorists, and the idea that your faux outrage is more important than truth is repugnant.
Feel terror, make counter terror...
Wait, isn't this a popular valve game that is about to get a 3?
No Valve game will ever get a 3
Oh shit, you're right. It's only Counter-Strike 2, isn't it.
Yup.
But don't forget. They are deploying 1 time use type armament, so they are also getting subsidized to keep weapon makers profitable.
Yeah if it was that simple the region would have peace already. Israel has never seriously considered peace as anything than something to avoid. See: How they funded Hamas in the 90s to take steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
Hamas didnt even exist when Israel funded Mosques and Charity work.
You think that's going to make a difference? People don't even take a moment to parse that fully 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, that those Arabs didn't have their land stolen, and that the reason they are in Israel is because they didn't listen to the propaganda of the Arab League that they needed to flee because Israel was going to kill them all/make it more convenient for the Arab League to kill all the Jews. No one gives a fuck about actual rich history, the role Arabs played in fucking over their own ethnic group time and again, or that the vast majority of Arab Israelis want fuck-all to do with Palestine except occasionally visit extended family members and then GTFO of the corrupt hellhole that is Gaza (while having legit gripes with how the Israeli state operates).
Doesn't seem like they were wrong...
You should look up Benny Morris (an Israeli Zionist historian)'s four-stage analysis of the Palestinian diaspora before saying shit like this.
I don't really want to comment on that. I feel like I am not qualified to judge about the complex problems in this region.
I see a reflex by some people pointing out that Palestinians are victims. But that does justify to take revenge in this way. This action will prolonge the hatred on both side and the entire situation even further. No one should support Hamas in this case.
A popular myth, but a myth nonetheless.
In 2014, Israel invaded Gaza and more than 2000 people were killed. Did Israel achieve anything other than radicalising more the local population, I would say no? Violence is never the answer or a recipe for long lasting peace.
Do you think that if Israel was treating Palestinians better and not causing a humanitarian crisis, the support for Hamas would be so strong?
Just for perspective, the Hamas army is around 30.000, while the Gaza strip population is around 2,3 million. So that's 1.3% while people who depend on humanitarian aid in the Gaza strip are 80% and probably this percentage would increase even further. So that's 1.7Mln people. Not to mention that 123.000 people have been displaced. Not to mention that they don't have access to clean drinking water, soon would run out of electricity and gas. So I don't know for you but my mind has trouble trying to process the scale of this humanitarian catastrophe.
Cutting off food, water and electricity for 2.3 million people.
I wonder if people notice the irony of Israel recreating the Warsaw ghetto.
So that justifies deliberately targeting civilians? Israel is no better than Hamas.
Yeah, lots of Palestinian music festivals attacked recently, eh?
They have been horrifically oppressed for decades.
They have lived in constant fight for your life squalor while America keeps siphoning money and weapons to Israel, who, in turn, simply tortures Palestine.
I dont condone it, but I can't bring myself to fake outrage or surprise.
America caused this.
America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
And at the end of the day, that was the point.
There is another armed conflict for American military contractors to cash in on.
Add to your list that Israel actively funded Hamas in the 90s to take the steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
If the same kind of pressure being put on Hamas was put on the Israeli authorities, the problem with Palestine would've been over long ago, just like Appartheid in South Africa has made to end by international pressure, not because the assholes in power in SA woke up one day and decided to the do the morally right thing.
As long as Israel gets to keep its boot on the necks of Palestinians (worse, activelly helped to do so), there will always be people who are born and grow with nothing to lose for whom even an organisation internationally treated as a terrorist organisation is still a step up.
I totally agree it's the US who have maintained this situation, and I also want to add Europe, whose leaders have sided with Israel or assumed the kind of "neutrality" that "peace loving" "tankies" assume with regards to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (i.e. not wanting to help Ukraine).
I'm well aware of Arab Israelis, mainly because uniquelly in the World, Israel has separated nationality from citizenship, and has put most rights under citizenship, not nationality.
Israeli Arabs are Israeli nationals with under that country's system Arab Citizenship, whilst Israeli Jews are Israeli nationals with Jewish Citizenship.
Israel grants different rights to different citizenships, so Israeli Arabs, for example, require authorization to go live in certain places and can legally be kicked out of their houses (as happens quite regularly in the Old City of Jerusalem), unlike Israeli Jews.
Still, it's better to get the second-class citizen treatment that the State of Israel gives to Israeli Arabs than the treatment it gives to prisioners in Israel's main prison, Gaza.
What are you insinuating?
As far as I know Palestinians have rejected every Offer they have received and only went for the whole destruction of Israel.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
I’m gonna take half your house and if you don’t like it I’ll just try to kill you (royal you this is not a threat). On top of that I’m not just taking half your house down the middle. I’m taking the master bathroom, the en-suite, the kitchen, the study… actually I’m taking both bathrooms you can shit in the garage where you sleep from now on, also you can have the shed I guess. But you’re not allowed in the yard so you can’t actually go to the shed, just look at it and know that it’s yours. I promise I won’t store my tools in there when you’re not looking.
What’s that? You want a hose to drink from the garden spigot? No, I’ve decided that it’s in appropriate for you to have your own access to water. You can ask me for a cup when you’re thirsty.
Btw my cousin is moving in next week so you’re gonna have to move your shit to the left side of the garage
Have you seen what was in many of those offers? "How about we only steal this much of your land? How about that?"
Your worldview is so fucked up. The reason Israel gets support is because if it didn't, the surrounding Arab nations would have wiped it out, as they have said multiple times.
It's like a bully attacks a little kid, and the little kid's older brother shows up to defend him, and then you saying, "the older brother caused this because he wouldn't let the bully beat up that little kid!"
You've got it all backwards man. Get help.
When the little brother starts slaughtering all of the innocent people who "are totally all bullies" and bombing their homes with impunity for 40 years with virtually no consequence, somewhere over those 40 years, the brothers became the bullies in the neighborhood.
Start using your brain big boy.
Stop regurgitating what Fox tells you to.
The Israelis do it too though.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Here's a video (in the article) where the chief palestinian negotiator explains what was offered in 2008. Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new 'policy document' accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu's repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump's imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -
None
It's not Palestinian either by that logic.
It is their land. They are about to prove that fact again over the coming months. Land belongs to the Earth. What society controls said land is up to the people’s will. Hamas ended its own life on Saturday.
If you treat a bunch of people like animals for long enough, what do you think will happen?