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the future capitalists will take from us if we let them continue destroying our planet (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 1 year ago by alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/memes@lemmy.ml

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[-] CorruptBuddha@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago

Ohh! So I rewatched Voyager!

Sevenofnine never wanted to be human.. Like she desperately missed the collective for a LOONG time. Janeway forced it on her.

Also! Janeway fucking killed off Tuvick. Dude was begging for his life.

Sorry haha, just wanted to bitch.

[-] lasagna@programming.dev 10 points 1 year ago

The Borg are arguably the most evil force of that universe. What Janeway did is about the only way to convert them back.

Tuvick is a bit more morally ambiguous and a good pick. Either choice would have killed someone, in a sense.

I think a worse one is that time they grew a clone just for their organs. This was Voyager, right? Star Trek do be like that.

[-] drapeaunoir@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago

IMHO this situation was not morally ambiguous, like at all. There was a transporter accident. Two crewmen died. That's that. The fact that a new sentient being came to life as a result is a completely separate matter. That being (Tuvix) as far as anyone should be concerned, was a newborn.

At that point, what you had was a tragic accident of no one's intention or volition.

The choice was never "save two crewmen" vs "save Tuvix," because at that point, the two crewman were already dead. And Tuvix was alive and in no danger. There was no moral impetus to do anything. A tragedy happened, it sucks. Move on with life.

So IMHO Janeway absolutely, intentionally, volitionally murdered Tuvix, who was a newborn in no danger. She absolutely resurrected two crewman who were already dead. She did this for her own personal reasons, and acted immorally. QED.

Thank you for coming to my irrationally-important-to-me TED talk.

[-] Sweedie@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I just rewatched this episode after reading these comments and I have to say I completely disagree with you.

Firstly, Tuvok and Neelix were not dead in a classical sense. Their bodies and minds were merged together into a third being. If they had legitimately died, they would not have been able to separate Tuvix back into two separate ALIVE people. To suggest that Janeway somehow ressurected two dead men after murdering a third is a bit disingenuous IMO.

Additionally, I think it's a bit misleading to refer to Tuvix as a completely individual newborn. Right off the bat he introduced himself as both Tuvok and Neelix and expressed that the had retained all of the memories, skills, feelings, and characteristics of the two men. His entire personality was derived from these two men and not something new/unique to him. This is completely different then an actual babies who may inherit traits from their parents but are unique in their own right.

While they did not know if they would be able to separate Tuvix, they were willing to accept their loss and welcome the new guy, however they determined with confidence that they could perform the separation. At that point the moral dilemma becomes: do you let two people die to save one, or do you kill one person to save two?

It's a take on a classic dilemma which, on paper, feels obvious to answer. The point of the episode is to demonstrate how difficult this ethical dilemma actually is when you have to look a man in the face and tell him his life isn't more important than the lives of two others.

I think it was also intended to highlight Janeway's ability to do the right thing even when it is brutally difficult. The episode ends with her walking away, distraught and affected, while maintaining her demeanor. THAT is why she is the captain of the ship.

[-] drapeaunoir@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 year ago

Hey thanks for the conversation! :)

So this is Star Trek. Being "not dead in a classical sense" applies to everyone who ever steps foot on a transporter. It's all sci-fi nonsense, so I really don't think we can apply any aspect of it to questions of ethics. And we don't have to, actually.

"Newborn" was not the right word. Tuvix was a new person that "began life" at the moment of the transporter accident. Yes, he was the combination of two separate people, but as he demonstrates throughout the episode, he is his own person, and in many ways, better at vital tasks than either of his "ancestors." He was a unique and valuable sentient life-form deserving of life.

I maintain there was no ethical dilemma. The question was never: "do you LET two people die to SAVE one." Again: Tuvix was never in any danger to be "saved" from. If no one does anything, then Tuvak and Neelix would have died, and Tuvix will continue living. If someone does something, then Tuvix dies. Full stop. The only enticing part about it is that those two dead people now become alive again through sci-fi wizardry.

The ethical dilemma would have been more high-stakes if, say, Tuvix would have died in a month anyway due to [insert technobabble here]. Then someone doing something might be more of an ethical dilemma. But as it stands, the only ACTION Janeway could have taken would be to end a life. The INACTION would be to allow Tuvix to continue living.

The classical ethics thought-experiment, The Trolley Problem, is fundamentally a question of agency and acts of will. The trolley is going to kill 5 people. Pull a lever and it diverts the trolley to the other track where it kills 1 person. Do you pull the lever and kill 1 to save 5? Does not pulling the lever make you responsible since you are there? And this is more relatable to this conversation: what if instead of pulling a lever, you have to push someone onto the tracks to save the 5?

But in this situation, the trolley has already killed 2 people through no action of your own (or anyone else's; it was an accident). Tuvix is alive and well and is in no danger of they trolley. But through sci-fi nonsense, if you pick up Tuvix and throw him onto the tracks, the trolley will kill him and somehow bring Tuvak and Neelix back to life. The ethics are clear.

Full disclosure, I consider Janeway to be one of my favourite captains of all time, if not my very favourite. I LOVE Janeway. I think she was fantastic and I'm devastated that Prodigy was cancelled. However, I think in this particular situation, she acted unethically. I don't blame her, I probably would have done the same thing for my beloved friends. But she did not follow classical nor Starfleet ethics in this case. Her action caused the death of a sentient life (new and unique in all the universe!) for the sake of two dead (whatever that means) friends. IMHO she made a mistake, but she's human and the mistake just makes her more relatable for it.