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[-] Tilted@programming.dev 13 points 1 year ago

Two things:

  1. Russia is using cluster munitions
  2. Russia started the war
[-] Dazza@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Yes but the people who suffer the most with these weapons is the civilians.

Just because they are already being used, doesn’t mean more should be used.

[-] Tilted@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

Agree. Russia is guilty of using cluster munitions, and they started the war. They need to stop on both counts.

[-] AdamantlyAdam@newsie.social -5 points 1 year ago

@Dazza So, leave the war in Ukraine lop-sided so we can absolutely ensure that the majority of those killed are Ukrainian civilians instead of Ukrainian civilians AND Russian soldiers? What kind of sense does that make?

[-] Dazza@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

I see your point but There’s no clear answer here.

The article raises a valid point that Cambodia has extensive history from these weapons spilling over from the Vietnam war and causing civilian fatalities way after the war ended.

My point here is that just because a war crime(s) is committed one the Russian side, that doesn’t give free reign to the Ukraine side to do the same.

[-] AdamantlyAdam@newsie.social 1 points 1 year ago

@Dazza There are legitimate concerns about using cluster munitions but Ukraine is well aware of the problems they create. And unlike a 3rd world country like Vietnam, they will be better suited to mitigate those threats post-war. In the meantime, none of this matters if they lose because Russia will kill half of them anyway after the war.

[-] BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tf 1 points 1 year ago

So they took a vote and the people decided that they’re okay with this? Or did the administration unilaterally decide this like when they decided to cancel elections and restrict labor rights?

[-] AdamantlyAdam@newsie.social -1 points 1 year ago

@BartsBigBugBag Just the fact that you asked those questions tells me everything I need to know. There's no point in trying to answer. You won't believe it anyway.

[-] lemmyman@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

And in the meantime Russia will have more time to drop even more cluster bombs

What's worse, 8000 Russian and 2000 Ukrainian (US)? Or 12000 Russian? (Made up numbers to illustrate a point I haven't seen made yet)

[-] 133arc585@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

What are these numbers? Lives lost? Bombs dropped?

[-] 133arc585@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

Russia will kill half of them anyway after the war.

Why? What sense does that make? When has there ever been any reason to believe that the goal is to kill Ukranians? This isn't even the first time I've seen it said that if Russia wins (or even loses!) they'll just wipe out all Ukranians afterwards. And neither time has there been any reasoning for why such an absurd claim should be believed.

If you truly believe this drivel, you're doing everyone a disservice by not attempting to justify your claims. If you truly believe it and provide justification, you might just convince others to believe what you do.

[-] fruitywelsh@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

I mean they have been bombing refugee coridors, so they clearly support killing noncombatants.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think Vietnam and Ukraine are both 2nd world actually? idgi honestly

[-] Lols@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

do i understand correctly that you are implying ukraine, a country attempting to frame itself as a modern developed democracy, should base its policies on those of russia

[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

I'd like to think that Ukraine could do better than Russia...

But then I guess they're getting the cluster munitions from the US, so maybe not?

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Not to mention all the depleted uranium.

It might be time to start considering that the Ukrainian military doesn't expect to get all its land back. In that case, they might not give much of a fuck about the destruction caused to the future inhabitants.

[-] Pili@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
  1. Not a reason to fuck up Ukraine for the next 100 years
  2. Not a reason to fuck up Ukraine for the next 100 years
[-] Tilted@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago

Russia should be held accountable in both cases.

For me the difference is using cluster munitions in defense of your country. It's not by choice, it's by necessity. Like most nuclear powers will use nuclear weapons in existential defense. Rightfully in my opinion.

[-] Serdan@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm sure the people who are going to be blown up in decades to come will appreciate that at least we held Russia accountable.

[-] sangle_of_flame@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Russia should be held accountable in both cases.

why is this even meaningful in this case

like now we blame Russia, now what

Ukraine's still fucked to shit

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago

But you wouldn't nuke your own country, right?

[-] Tilted@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago

You would nuke your enemy, right?

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago
[-] Tilted@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago

So you would give up your nukes?

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I don't have any nukes. I'm not a state, nuclear or otherwise.

[-] WarmSoda@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

Yo mama so big shes a state, nuclear or otherwise.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

Imagine nuking yourself to own the Russians lol

[-] fidodo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago
  1. Ukraine has already been using cluster munitions, they're just running out
  2. The US cluster munitions would have a much lower dud rate than either the Ukrainian or Russian cluster bombs

Source

Whether or not you agree with the US sending them more cluster weapons, they're already on use. The Cambodian PM seems completely uninformed if he thinks this is an escalation.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

"Warcrimes are okay when the other side does them too."

[-] Krause@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 1 year ago
[-] raoul@rammy.site 3 points 1 year ago

From your link:

Ukrainian forces have used cluster munitions that caused deaths and serious injuries to civilians. Russian forces have extensively used cluster munitions, causing many civilian deaths and serious injuries. 

[-] pingveno@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Your interpretation of what the Pentagon said does not match the quote. They are very careful: they cannot definitively conclude that the video includes the uses of cluster munitions. That's not to say that the video doesn't show cluster munitions or that Russia isn't using them elsewhere.

The second link does conclude that Russia has used cluster munitions. That is with the benefit of over a year to gather evidence.

this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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