489
China says Israel has gone too far
(www.politico.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2023
489 points (93.7% liked)
World News
39034 readers
1043 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Where on those images does it show they were damaged by non chinese weaponry?
What are you talking about, of course they were damaged with Chinese weaponry. They're in China. I already told you at the time weapons weren't as restricted, the people got access to Chinese weaponry. Why the fuck would Chinese protestors use other weaponry?
*Edit: Did you know BLM protestors used AR-15s? Where was the non-American weaponry? No PROOF THEREFORE BLM DIDN'T HAPPEN. You absolute dunce.
For fucks sake dude, obviously I mean proper noun china, in contrast to the imaginary terrorists.
Could you pick typing, or huffing glue? You get to do 1. Either turn off your computer, or go put the fucking glue away.
Chinese people used Chinese weapons yes. Just like Americans user AR-15s. What is your point?
AR15s are not trademarked US weaponry. An AR15 is not proof of american military presence. Its just a gun.
Do I need to dumb down questions for you? Should I avoid big boy words?
... Are you dumb? AR-15 is the civilian moniker for M-16. You know that right? There's no way to distinguish the damage they do from one another.
You genuinely have no idea what you were asked, and its so fucking funny.
Its like someone told me they trained their dog really well, so I tell the dog (you) to fetch a ball. And the dog (you) keeps trying to put its paw in my hand. No you dumb dog! Fetch!
Im not using complex ideas, Im speaking in simple sentences, Im repeating myself for you when you fuck up, and you still dont grok a thing.
"Hurrr, but AR? But AR? That merica weapon? Weapon, in merica? AR? It M16? Hurr? What was question?"
There's no way to distinguish the damage. It would be like comparing ar-15 with m-16. It's impossible. And thus, you've proven why China simply says fuck you.
..... Do you think that terrorists on american soil would attack with ARs?
Do you think that the american military only uses the M16, as its singular weapon, and would respond with such to a terror attack?
Do you think the only evidence of non military strikes are if you can see an AR in frame?
Genuinely, you have no clue what youre talking about.
Wait, do you not know there's domestic terrorism? Do you think the Jan 6th rioters used foreign weapons? BLM? Yet the police still had to deal with them, sometimes violently.
I don't get where you are getting this foreign terrorist idea from
The jan 6th rioters mostly didnt use weapons at all, but the ones carrying used open market sold firearms. Not military issued and grade weaponry.
Ill be honest, I dont think you know what BLM even was. You keep bringing it up like its even remotely on topic. Do you watch a lot of fox news?
Let me spell it out for you. Ill keep it simple. Read slowly, and sound out the words.
China makes their own weaponry. Their weapons, like all weapons, leave specific patterns of damage and debris. Every nation has heavily studied these weaponry patterns, and can easily determine what weapons could and couldnt cause a given type of damage.
China doesnt sell its weapons to the people, and really never has. The public chinese gun market was mostly foreign made, and chinese weapons were mostly used for self arming or selling to other nations. There are a lot of political reasons for that, but they dont matter for this. The end result was foreign guns in the peoples hands, and state made guns in state sponsored hands.
What this means is any evidence of non chinese weaponry would prove actions of terrorists. Any evidence. Left behind guns, bombs, grenades, any bullet casings, any identifying fragments of weaponry, specific destructive patterns, literally anything.
Even a single non chinese bullet dug out of a wall would prove china right, because chinese military would never have those bullets.
China has nothing to show. Despite how easy it would be to find any type of this evidence.
Right so ignoring your ignorance I will repeat, people use weapons they create. The Chinese used Chinese weapons. And I'd love you to explain how to differentiate the casings of a Russian SKS and a Chinese made one. Or a markarov. Oh wait, they're exactly the same. And that was the primary weapons for both the civilians and the military at that time. Well damn, I guess your just wrong
...... Are you claiming that people only use guns they handcraft? And not purchase? Because the chinese public gun market from 1870 to the massacre was almost exclusively foreign models.
You tell the difference based on manufacturer differences. They burn and bend the casings differently. You can id which factory an SKS came from via that. Same thing for bullets, you can tell exactly which gun fired a bullet based on the damage done to the bullet by the chamber. Thats how cops can id which gun was used at the scene of a crime.
Wait wait wait, you think they handcraft SKS? Also, you clearly don't understand forensics. The only way they can match is if they have the gun. You can't match based on the bullet or casing alone.
*Edit: Here's a document on how forensics works.
https://www.nist.gov/firearms-and-toolmarks#:~:text=What%20is%20forensic%20ballistics%3F,marks%20are%20like%20ballistic%20fingerprints.
Key point:
They need the suspect's gun to identify.
You said they handcraft them, dunce. Im mocking you for that.
You need the gun to match the specific gun to its specific bullet. You can still id model and company of origin, often down to the factory via batching defects.
A bullet or its casing would tell you what kind of gun it was, and who made it. Proof of russian made SKS, for example, would show that non military combatants were present.
I didn't say anyone handcrafted anything. I said you can't tell the difference between a Russian SKS and a Chinese one. You're the weird one talking about handcrafting.
Also, no you can't tell the difference forensically from a Russian vs Chinese SKS unless you had the gun. They were literally made with the same tools. But you don't know that do you?
Ok dunce, your comments are right there.
If they were made in the same factory, you mean? Its the same concept as forensicall bullet to barrel matching. You are matching the casing to known micro defects of the regions manufacture.
Different manufacturers use different materials for the barrel, or chamber, etc which alters how the bullet or casing is dented, burned, etc. Theres also some minor stylistic differences which result in the same thing. AK47s from russia in the 60s jam a lot, for example, way more than is normal. Something was wrong with a template, and the error wasnt caught for a while.
This forensics was used in the middle east under bush to id who had participated in different fire fights, because different groups were supplied from different sources. If you know only the taliban has access to russian made weaponry, for example, you can use that to id where they were involved.
Your handler should have told you all this, very embarassing.
Nothing you said is correct. I literally sent you a document that explains how it works. Your ignorance is astounding.
No you didnt, you sent a link to a 2 paragraph article-ette detailing how cops apply the science to match a gun to a crime scene.
Thats just how local cops use it, not the only way to study post firing remnants. Cops dont need to know which militaristic force robbed your cousin, just if his personal gun was at the crime.
This is like if you posted a mini blurb on how to collect rain water in your backyard as proof that the water cycle doesnt create fog.
Ask your handler. Im sure he can explain this to you using pictures with bright colors.
E: I actually went looking through that site, and while its not public access they go into some detail about how they are literally creating a database of gun type forensics. Literally exactly what I am talking about, down to gun year and difficulties vs obvious tells for specific models.
Yeah, things they didn't have in the 89s. Thanks for confirming you have no idea what you're talking about. A database of gun type forensics. Yeah all those super computers in China back then.
Holy shit, you genuinely are stupid. That single website is working on their own private database for american gun circulation. That is not the global database for all guns ever since the invention of guns. We have had ballistic forensics since the 1800s, and manufacturer tells have been commonly known since the 20s.
I pointed it out as an example from your source confirming that what I said was correct. Are you now calling your own source a liar?
Also..... Hey, buddy? You understand databases are older than computers right? A database is just a collection of datapoints. This could be, and likely is, a stapled packet of papers sorted by company and model.
Oh, wait, let me guess. China didnt have paper in the 80s?
A collection of sortable data points. Guess what isn't easy to sort, stacks of paper. No one had a "database" of forensic markings to compare anything to back then. Which is why they compared it to the barrels. Sure once you get computers and stuff you could use that to collect data points and sort, but you ain't doing that with paper.
Otherwise, why even have computers?
*Edit: Oh wait is this your thinking of how SKS are handcrafted? The world doesn't work that way.
Hold up, are you trying to claim that china is so incompetent that they couldnt do the basic levels of investigation that had been common use since the 20s on a massive terrorist attack??
The US was using this data nationwide in the 60s. Are you genuinely saying china was over 2 decades behind the US for basic investigation capacity?? For a supposed terrorist attack??
How incompetent are you trying to say china is?
At that time, very. That's actually well known. China's boom didn't really start until the early 2000. Which is why America likes to say that they created China.
But all that is actually not the point. It's not an issue of incompetence but simply not keeping stacks of useless data about minor forensic differences in bullets. As with most places at that time, you'd just have enough to give you type of gun but not make and manufacturer. I'm not even sure that US would have had it at that time.
*Edit and China didn't care at the time because unlike the violent shithole that is America, they didn't have a lot of gun crime.
Ballistics forensics has been considered massive military intel since, again, the 20s. Its considered one of the intel gold standards, it is only useless if youre a fucking moron.
Its cute that youre pretending this is some useless info, but even a simple google search would show you otherwise. Any country with legal guns keeps detailed records. As you yourself so proudly stated, china had a thriving foreign gun economy. Information about those guns would have been at the tips of any investigations fingers. (It doesnt matter how much gun crime you have, because if you have any gun crime at all you need to id the murder weapon.)
Especially while investigating a terrorist attack.
Youre grasping at straws because you didnt read your own source before sending it to me with a bow, not realizing it confirmed what I already told you. Just admit youre lying about the fake terrorists.
Like I said, china was backwards in many things at that time. The reason all their weapons were Soviet was because they didn't know how to even begin to make their own. The Chinese story is one of coming from nothing in the 80s and 90s to becoming a super power in the 20s.
So yeah, their military definitely didn't meet the gold standard at that time.
What about it.
And thus, again, why China just says fuck you. There's no reason to let anyone know where in advancement stages china was in.
Dude do you understand how unhinged you sound claiming china has no idea what basic crime investigation is?
Thats like saying they were still using horse drawn carriages. Or didnt have shoes.
Wow, such an American thing to say. Hey the world isn't America, we don't all have gun violence problems. It shouldn't be surprising that China didn't invest in ballistic forensics as much as America did. But to YOU, not having good ballistic forensics is the same as having no idea about basic crime investigation.
Hey, here's another secret, crime existed before guns. Crime investigation existed before guns. Not all countries had psychopaths like the US toting guns and shooting everyone that ballistic forensics became important.
Jesus, you sound ignorant of the real world.
It was an international standard set in 1933 by a conference in europe, which the majority of the world participated in. Its not magically uniquely american, other nations also know what forensic science is.
Hey look, I get youve dug such a deep hole that you need to pretend that america is the only country who can investigate crimes in order to not admit you lied about the terrorist thing. But you sound like an idiot pretending china was some undeveloped proto nation.
Ah yes Europe, the Asianest of continents. Wait no it's not. One of the problems China had was that the west wasn't sharing all the data with them. It's cute again that the west thinks they're the international world. But guess what, Asia never felt that way. It's literally one of the dividing issues. Again, so ignorant.
*Edit: Also it's important to note that I'm not saying China couldn't match a barrel to a gun. I'm saying China didn't have this magical database that could let it identify to the manufacturer. It simply wasn't important to China at the time to match to manufacturer. If they found the murder weapon it was enough for them to identify the murderer.
*Edit 2: Wait in 1933 was just the standardization of how to identify barrel to gun. There was no database at that time. You're just makin stuff up to trick me. WHEN DID THIS MAGICAL DATABASE EXIST!?
China was involved in the conference, so I dont think they felt left out of the party they were present at. Manufacturer identification is older than barrel id. Barrel id is matching a specific bullet to a specific gun.
...... Every country makes its own database, honey. There isnt a single database. This isnt a video game, its the real world.
Bingo and as I said over and over China didn't invest a lot into this. So they didn't have the data to trace. It's not rocket science.
*Edit: Also, it's not like I said they couldn't trace anything. I said they could trace to type at the time, but not as detailed as manufacturer. You'd need enough data to do that and they didn't think it was important to collect to that level.
They went to a conference in 1933 to directly invest in this, so I think they knew it just fine.
You seem to think manufacturer id is harder than gun barrel id. Manufacturer id is very easy, thats what was pioneered in the 20s.
If china could do barrel id (which they could, like everyone else) they could do manufacturer id.
If they had the gun. Which they don't. I've also said that again and again. They needed the gun to match the barrel and bullet.
*Edit: Matching to barrel is also different than matching to type. They only kept enough to match to type unless they had the gun in question.
Why dont they? They killed everyone at the protest. How did those terrorists lose, but magically vanish away their weaponry?
And, also, no, if they had any piece of the weapon they could id its manufacturer.
Matching type is matching manufacturer. Thats what the type is. The manufacturing is the part that makes the gun denting and burning identifiable. Youre pulling this out of your ass because you dont understand how this works.
Lol, god so you admit what I was saying
Yes, I know this, in fact I've been saying it over and over if they had the gun. But no they didn't go around digging through the corpses to find all the data. Again, I get that YOU want them to, but they didn't. And again, this is why China just says fuck you. Because it's none of your god damn business what they choose to do. They chose to sweep up everything as quickly as possible and return things to normal, not go out of their way to hunt the protestors. China isn't as revenge obsessed as Americans.
Bullets are part of the weapon, sweetheart.
I know you think china still shits in buckets, but they arent living in mideval times. They werent a century behind the rest of the world.
And they absolutely dont shrug and excuse a terror attack, thats a fucking laughable claim.
Just admit you made up the terrorists bud
Oh wow, I just realized you optimize American ignorance.
After Tiananmen, the Chinese government realized their mistakes and instead of spending agonizing time to find all the assailants, they decided instead to reform. They spent the next decades doing capitalist reforms and trying to improve everyone's lives after that incident leading to today where China is unquestionably just behind USA.
After Jan 6th, US decided the best thing to do with it's time is to hunt down everyone at the Jan 6th riots. Creating a massive divide in the country. Causing friends and family to turn on each other. Because hunting down the rioters was more important to them than fixing the actual issues at hand.
You see this in the HK riots too. China only arrested the leaders, they let everyone else go. They aren't interested in identify exactly who did what, they know that cutting off the head is enough.
But then, that's the difference between western and eastern thought. Westerners are so individualistic they obsess over every individual. Eastern thought is that if we see something like this, there must be something structurally wrong and we need to fix it.
And I'll say again, after these riots is when China reformed and changed their laws, not hunt down individuals. Where as in the US, the Americans say their laws are absolute and they need to hunt down every individual.
*Edit: And while you may not agree with China's law changes and say they're oppressive, the simple reality is, when China sees structural issues like this, they're open to change.
So you are claiming that after china was attacked by terrorists, they didnt look at all to find out if another attack was coming?
Since, historically, terror attacks happen in waves? Multiple attacks within a few weeks or months?
Youre saying china did zero research or investigation to try and prevent further terror attacks? They were okay with more attacks happening? No attempt to find the ringleaders?
They did find the ring leaders what are you talking about? I literally just said they cut it off at the head and feel that's enough. In fact this is one of the reasons the US keeps claiming China is oppressing people. When China feels it has enough evidence they arrest the leaders. They don't have to pass what US thinks is enough like your personal obsession with ballistics. Thus, the US complains China oppresses it's people. But the reality is China just thinks differently and doesn't want to waste time explaining it to ignorant people.
I'm actually happy we are having this discussion. I would have never realized how different the thinking is without you. Thanks, this is great. Even if you have no idea.
How did they find the ring leaders without the ability to investigate the origins of the weapons? Thats how terrorists are usually caught, via following the weaponry sales.
They couldnt interrogate anyone, they were killed.
How did they find the source if they were incapable of tracking their weaponry?
Wow, so stupid. These were riots. Are you saying we didn't know the leaders of the Jan 6th riots or BLM riots? They literally stood up with megaphones.
No, we didnt. It took 8 months to find the organizers of the jan 6th riots. You called that an individualistic obsessions with revenge just a minute ago, yes? Well without that, the people behind jan 6th would have gotten away free. This was on the news regularly, not sure how you didnt know that.
And no one was ever caught as a ringleader for any BLM protest. At all.
Do you not know how terror attacks work? The people doing the attacking are not the leaders. The leaders do not go to the attack. They stay hidden and plan further attacks.
Did you think that bin laden was on the planes that hit the twin towers???
You know, unlike USA, China arrested their version of Trump. Look up Jimmy Lai. Where as in the US, they're saying the leaders are these people below, in China they say the leader is the one promoting it in newspapers. Which again to your thinking is freedom of speech but also why China doesn't have that. If your promoting the riots, your the leader, not the guy on the ground.
Thats got nothing to do wth your fake terrorists.
E: wait, unless you are claiming that china just grabbed a random person, claimed they were a terrorist leader, and just hoped the real terrorist leader didnt plan any other attacks?