349
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
349 points (95.8% liked)
World News
38563 readers
2980 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Wtf is wrong with people. The initial Hamas attack was bad. But Israel is now basically bulldozing Gaza and trying to turn it into a pule of rubble.
In what world does that make sense? They don't need U.S. aid or anybody else's help doing that. We should be internationally condemning what they're doing right now. Instead we are offering to give them money?
Am I crazy for thinking this is far far beyond a sane response. They have literally been killing children.
This isn't a response, it's what they wanted to do for over half a century now. Killing Palestine or shoving it to nearby countries was always the plan, Israel was just waiting for an excuse.
I think it's a mistake to pretend like this has been a monolithic response for Israel. It's a little telling when people pretend like every action by the current government is and represents all of Israel for the last 50 years. This is the actions of an extreme radically right government. Netanyahu and his far right extremist allies have set this up and very likely been behind part of the entire debacle. For this reason as you suggest. However we should not pretend like his radicals have been running the entire country for its entire history. Anyone paying attention should know that these religious radicals have been at war with their own country just as much as the palestinians.
It doesn't really make sense to characterize a prime minster that is entering his (approximately) 16th year in office as being some kind of aberration. If the US elected Trump for four non-consecutive terms as president, I think would be fair to characterize the US right wing as being the norm rather than an aberration. How many times does Israel have to put a fascist in charge before they get a share of the blame for what he does in office?
His current government is an aberration though. His latest coalition isn't the same one as in past years. It's far more radical. Ignoring that is beyond dangerous to the entire situation.
You have pivoted your argument from "this government isn't actually representative of the will of the Israeli people" to "its dangerous to ignore how much more fascist this democratically elected leadership is than the past governments, which were literally made up of the same people." No shit, this government is dangerous, no one is arguing against that. It is ALSO the government that the people of Israeli have chosen, over and over and over again. Israel is a fascist right wing nation because they have chosen to be that.
What about all rubble in the West Bank? The settlements for more foreigners? The harassment everyday; especially in Jerusalem? This isn't just the last 50 years, it's been over 70...
They needed a good casus belli, this is as good as it is gonna get for them PR-wise.
Truth is virtually no country ever denounce shit if they have something to lose doing so. Geopolitics is rooted in each nation self-interest.
On top of that, Palestinians just hasn't been good neighbors and no country on earth want to bring the kind of chaos of taking them as refugees. So we have it. Most nations will root for Israel out of self-interest, and pretend there is no need to take refugees.
You are very sane.
At least on this topic.
A few months ago they were literally bulldozing roads.
Right. Insane. Even if they remove Gaza and all the people there from the face of this earth, all they will have accomplished is decades more coming back at them. The people of Israel are less safe than ever. Hamas did the same to their people as clearly they too are all less safe. When will this madness stop? This is disgusting and a worrying sign as we enter the AI age, that humanity just has not grown the fuck up.
I'm going to assume you're familiar with this long, complicated conflict. If you were in Israel's shoes, how would you respond to the Hamas attack?
Hamas has a leader in a tunnel under a refugee camp. You can 1) go into the tunnel and kill the Hamas fighters, possibly losing IDF soilders along the way, or 2) you can bomb the fuck out of the civilian houses on top of the tunnel and hope that collapses the tunnel and kills the leader, killing hundreds of civilians. A righteous country, an explicitly religious country who answers to god, would choose to sacrifice it's soilders over sacrificing innocent lives. Israel instead decided to commit a war crime. And then after being called out by the international community, did the same thing the next day.
Since you like asking questions, maybe you can answer one. Please explain how cutting off food and water for 2.1 million people is a legitimate military tactic and not just the war crime of collective punishment?
Sacrifice your soldiers today for potential enemy soldiers in the future, while you're at war and under attack by said enemy? Great plan.
You're suggesting Israel should have to keep open supply lines open for enemy forces. Embargoing and cutting off your supplies from a hostile force is pretty standard when it comes to warfare. What's different here is that said enemy is totally dependent on Israel for their basic necessities, and they attacked them anyway. The results were predictable and tragic, and Israel is being portrayed as villainous for denying those who are actively trying to kill them its resources. This isn't a mediaeval siege, Gaza can still get essential supplies from Egypt via Rafah, as they have been.
My plan is to comply with international humanitarian law. It is a great plan. Its an awesome fucking plan in fact.
And here you acknowledge the cage.
2.1 million Palestinians are a hostile force? Also its literally a requirement of international humanitiarian law
Your literally defending war crimes buddy. Maybe take a look in the mirror.
The territory of Gaza is at war with Israel. That means the people in these territories are at war with each other. And territories at war, war with each other collectively. Government-sponsored violence against another government subjects the entire territory they control to violence. That's the way war works.
Israel is allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza.
You literally asked me to defend it!
I am sorry but this humanitarian aid is extremely insufficient, plenty of people can't access it, there are no pauses of fighting, they are indiscriminately killing people. Israel doesn't really care about the civilian suffering and deaths and they are proving it every day.
What Israel is doing with Gaza is horrific and eerily resembles what the Jewish people went through during the Holocaust, just this time they are the aggressor. You know Gaza is like an open air concentration camp where people are starved and killed, forced to live in makeshift tents and dehumanized by their oppressor. Shame that you haven't learnt your lesson!
And perhaps you should also self reflect on your morality and perhaps check your karma
The increase in humanitarian aid just started.
That they are providing it at all is pretty incredible as far as warfare goes. Could you imagine if the world criticized the US for not sending humanitarian aid to Nazi Germany while they were still belligerent to them, before they unconditionally surrendered, and then after providing some, the world criticized them for not sending enough?
Gaza has been so thoroughly defeated that they are dependent on Israel for the most basic necessities, yet refuse to surrender, choosing instead to escalate attacks. This is very strange warfare, historically the consequences for refusing to pacify would have been far more dire than what Israel has done, they have shown great restraint so far. If they played by the same rules as Hamas there would be no Palestine.
They are at war after all.
Indiscriminate rocket attacks are more of a Palestinian thing. According to Israel they are hitting valid military targets that are often placed by Hamas among civilians with relatively high accuracy. I'd like a citation if you have credible evidence from an unbiased source that their attacks are indiscriminate, please.
It's almost like there are consequences to constant guerilla attacks then provoking a war one cannot win against a nation one is entirely dependent upon for necessities, which possesses a superior military force. I guess the inevitable and predictable consequences of the war they provoked are Israel's fault.
Yeah it's just like that, remember when the Jews instigated guerilla attacks against Germans for over a century, refused to negotiate for peace, declared multiple failed wars on them aided by Germany's neighboring states, then slaughtered thousands of German civilians in a guerilla attack? Wait, actually, none of that happened.
The only similarity is that there are people in walled enclaves. Jews were peaceful members of German society and were put in concentration camps because of conspiracy theories, racism, and scapegoating. Usually the only way out was death. Gazans are behind a wall because of belligerence, they are literally killing Israeli civilians and refuse to stop. They can leave through the Raffah gate when it's open and no one is systemically eradicating them, (were that Israel's goal they certainly have the means but have chosen not to because they are not fucking Nazis.) I find your comparison distasteful and reductionist, an attempt to make Jews as bad as the most reviled of historical villains, when they are simply trying everything they can to achieve safety from a neighbor who, like the Nazis, openly wants to genocide them.
I don't know about your server, but my karma is quite high on mine, not that it matters. I'm not going to pick up a pitchfork and simp for Hamas simply because that's popular with the online mob. Shame on you for tacitly defending them and suggesting I should do the same.
Prior to 7th of October there were 165K injured Palestinians vs 6K Israelian, and that's only since 2008. Casualties are also 20 times higher on the Palestinian side and a lot of those are women and children. Source: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
So please tell me again about the restraint of the IDF, because these numbers seem to contradict your words! And just to make things even clearer, the military wing of Hamas is 30K.
And I will leave this here as you kind of make Israel the only victim here, https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/other-mass-displacement-while-eyes-are-gaza-settlers-advance-west-bank-herders-enhe
Israel's casualties are lower for a number of reasons that I probably don't have to list, pointing this out is not exactly compelling evidence that their attacks are indiscriminate (i.e., done at random or without careful judgment.) You're making a claim about intent regarding targeting. Are they firing these rockets randomly at populated areas like Hamas does, or does the IDF carefully choose targets and tell the media specifically what the intended military target was? 🤔
You're ignoring the military capability and tactics they aren't using. Israel has nukes, they could level every building in Gaza without warning people at all, they could just roll in and shoot everybody, they could use biological weapons, they could have forcibly closed the Rafah gate and kept food and water out until people starved to death, they could start a big fire, you know, actual genocide stuff, actual war crimes. They don't. They get accused of it anyway though.
Israel really needs to keep its people in check and prosecute their civilians and soldiers who are breaking the law in the west bank. They need security there, that is some bullshit, I agree.
Ah could you please then tell me how many of those 9000+ casualties are legitimate military targets, how many actual Hamas fighters they killed? And bring proof that all of those 10.000+ strikes have been indeed targeting military infrastructure. You are questioning Hamas propaganda but not questioning the Israeli propaganda. Don't you realise the hypocrisy in this situation.
And a couple of days ago I read an article that IDF leveled or severely damaged more than 4% of all residential buildings. That's the homes of 100k residents. How is this justified? Fact is you as a person has never experienced anything even remotely similar to what Gaza residents are forced to experience every day, you can't even fathom how it is to be on the other side of the fence. And you still defend them with all your wrongdoings. With this you are only proving how much brainwashed you are with your country's propaganda.
Good job referring to Palestinian civilians as "potential enemy soldiers". It's not technically dehumanizing but it really does show how you objectify them to justify killing them.
Pardon me for acknowledging reality.
The majority of Palestinians support terrorism/guerilla resistance against Israel, and are unwilling to accept either a 2-state solution or a 1-state solution where Jews have equal rights. Not just potential, likely enemy soldiers.
(most of whom want to deny Israel a right to exist, oppress and/or drive the Jews into the sea.)
Not murder children
Vague. Does that mean, let them keep launching attacks against your civilians from behind human shields, or send in ground forces expecting wildly massive casualties?
At its root it's actually pretty simple. If it involves killing children, do not do it. If you'd like we can get into the more in depth discussion of slowly forcing more and more people into a terrible situation and how that drives them into the arms of Hamas, but at its root, don't shoot kids.
Given that one cannot see the future, there's always a chance of collateral damage with any military action, and a decent chance it will be a child in Gaza where the inhabitants decided to have a lot of them, it sounds like you've ruled out any sort of reprisal. Let them slaughter your civilians with impunity, then? Great plan.
Listen man, I get you're not arguing in good faith here but here goes. The Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens are inexcusable, but they did not and do not excuse the indiscriminate bombing of one of if not the most densely populated areas on the planet. One that I might add has a population that is on average 14.
Is this an easy or quick thing to resolve? No, absolutely not. Is doing nothing a good option? No. Is killing thousands and forcing the rest into the fucking sea the correct response? Fuck no.
I resent that characterization, just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm not arguing in good faith.
According to Israel the bombings are not indiscriminate, they target valid military objectives.
No one is being driven into the sea. It seems like you're implying that the consequences of Gazans having lots of children then provoking war against a superior force should be to bind Israel's hands regarding how they can respond, denying them access to common military tactics that minimize their own losses. You've ruled out doing nothing and airstrikes. The only viable option I can see that remains: the IDF should now have to sacrifice lots of soldiers and hand Hamas a victory by going in without air support, because Gazan forces are hiding among Gazan children. That's a tremendously bad move in terms of military strategy.
Assuming you're being genuine:
Hamas has to go. There is no stable situation leaving them in power.
We have a couple different approaches to resolving this:
A. providing a transportation corridor from fatah controlled territory to Gaza, providing military aid to Fatah, and let them clear out hamas.
B. Open up a large refugee camp just outside of Gaza, allow all the Gaza civilians to migrate to this new camp, screen for weapons. Once everyone who wants to leave is left, then you do the ground operations inside of old Gaza...
C. Invite UN peacekeepers to occupy Gaza, and then run new elections under UN observation
Though I take small issue with your comment, the implication is, we can't do anything except kill more people. We've tried killing them before, that didn't work, we should try killing them harder this time. That's not a stable situation either - unless you kill all of them. And if that's the goal, they're doing a bad job of it. They're doing it too slowly
Under no circumstance will Hamas "go". Hamas and its allies in the Palestinian resistance represent the will of the entire Palestinian people. The Palestinian authority that Israel and the west has imposed on us will crumble if it ever has to face Hamas. Palestinians will resist violently until all of Palestine is liberated. That is that.
Fire Netanyahu and the entire mossad for this shit tier intelligence and then fix the Gaza infrastructure.
I like the fire Netanyahu part.
So keep the status quo, allow Hamas to stay in power, and improve the infrastructure of an actively belligerent enemy? Wow what a reward you'd give them for slaughtering your people, maybe they should do it again next time they need infrastructure.
Maybe if Israel actually allowed Gaza to hold elections, Hamas wouldn't be in power 🤔 instead Bibi needed a bad guy on his doorstep to keep in power, and he was too busy engaging in ethnic cleansing in the west bank to actually secure the "border" (i.e, the walls of the open air prison Palestinians are kept in) with Gaza.
Israel is never going to have true security keeping a group of people trapped, without political rights, with strict controls on their access to basic goods. Fuck Hamas, but violence is the predictable result of depriving people of political rights and basic freedoms. Today it's Hamas, tomorrow it's some other group, it will keep happening. Building a better cage will only do so much good, desperate people are dangerous. Until that is resolved, Israel will have no real security.
They did hold elections, Gaza elected Hamas and then Hamas did a coup and ensured an election has not been held there since.
I think they recognize this, given their recent statements. Hamas has made it clear they will not surrender or negotiate for a viable peace no matter how much worse Israel can and will make things. I suspect for this reason we're probably going to see a forcible regime change and/or some annexation in Gaza very soon.
I was specifically referring to the 2021 elections and Israel's refusal to allow East Jerusalem to vote after Israel annexed the territory. But you probably knew that. Palestinians dislike Hamas, an election likely would have removed them from power, but Israel gave Hamas the bullshit excuse it needed to stay in power. Great job!
I don't know if you have reading comprehension problems or were specifically ignoring the point, but I was explicitly talking about what comes after Hamas. You have 2.1 million people in a cage for decades. You cut off their food and water for weeks, kill 10,000 people, over half children, and you think even after you kill every Hamas leader and solider that the citizens that left are just going to go back to living in their cage without human rights? This is something the US learned in Afghanistan, you kill one civilian, you create two new terrorists. The same will happen here. Unless, of course, your intention was to lump all Palestinians under the label of "Hamas", in which case consider your true colors seen!
I also agree that Israel intends to engage in illegal ethnic cleansing. Glad we're on the same page about that at least.
Actually I am unaware of this, time for some reading, thanks for mentioning it. Any sources besides Wikipedia you'd recommend?
Rage doesn't change their realpolitik situation. At this rate they if don't make viable peace their remaining land will ebb away. If they are left in charge, I wonder if PA might be more amenable to real concessions now that they see how bad massive civilian attacks combined with a refusal to negotiate or surrender has made things for Hamas. If nothing else this has shown things can always get worse for them if they choose not to pacify. Gaza is experiencing the stick, next Israel will probably offer Palestinian leaders willing to be reasonable a carrot.
That's presuming Israel doesn't annex the entirety of Gaza, they reportedly tried negotiating for Egypt to take in all 2 million Gazans.
Calling it ethnic cleansing doesn't make much sense given that 20% of Israel's citizenry is Arab. Israel is not ethnically homogeneous, but perhaps moving people who are actively trying to kill them and unwilling to surrender farther away from them violates some other international law their opponents can clutch pearls over:
Don't forget that Netanyahu is responsible for said status quo. He's the reason Hamas has as much power as it does. There's ways to dismantle them peacefully. He's done the opposite because he wants this dangerous group to give him pretext. Firing him and his radicals would go a long way toward a more peaceful solution.
Are you people being paid? I've seen this "question" like 15 times.
He's the one who posted it 15 times
No one has been able to satisfactorily answer it every time I've seen it asked. I thought I'd pose the same question I've seen elsewhere to see if 'yall have any better ideas. It's easy to be a critic, it's harder to offer viable solutions.
Oh word? Because every time I see literally "not murder children"
Not doing something isn't a solution. How, specifically, would you respond?
If I was Israeli I would dismantle my god forsaken cursed country and end the scourge that it has been in the region.