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this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2023
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Amazing that this has not been done decades ago.
To be completely fair, a layer builds up in the pipe which stops the lead being an issue unless you royally fuck up like Flint. That said, it still should've been fixed
As someone who thankfulky doesn't like in the un-united states of america How exactly did flint royally fuck up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis
They were buying water from Detroit's water system. In order to save money, they switched to getting it from the nearby river, but they failed to account for how the new water source would interact with their pipes. They didn't treat the new water correctly and it corroded all their old lead pipes, dumping lead into the water and giving everyone lead poisoning.
Even years later, after they switched back to Detroit water, they're still having problems because the damage to the pipes is already done.
They switched to a water source that wasn’t treated with orthophosphates. This change in water chemistry created an environment where the lead would dissolve off and be replaced with other metal deposits. My layman understanding is the water was treated in a way to bind lead to the pipes and the untreated water created an environment where the effect was counteracted.
“Orthophosphates create a mineral coating that keeps toxic lead stuck to pipes.”
“The absence of orthophosphates made the lead vulnerable to dissolving off the pipes and into the water supply. Meanwhile, other metals like aluminum and magnesium appeared to take the lead's place.”
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/study-confirms-lead-got-flints-water
Well, the appointed officials switched to a water source and specifically chose to not treat it with required chemicals to save money.
Slightly different than just switching water sources.
Thank you, I wasn’t entirely confident that part got proven or not so I didn’t want to inappropriately make the statement.
It's such a staggering amount of work and money that I think is hard for most people to comprehend. Though, if dispersed properly, will benefit local workers as they usually require they get paid prevailing wage. Which can be pretty fucking high depending on where you live.
And even once all of the lead service lines are replaced, that's just from main to the meter at most. All of the internal fixtures are the owner's responsibility, and you better believe tons of old houses are still full of lead pipes.
This is something that is going to take decades, and you're absolutely right that we should have started decades ago.
Germany outlawed installing lead pipes in 1973, this year operating them got outlawed, though already ten years ago the permissible lead concentrations were so low as to be basically impossible achieve if you had even short runs of lead pipes. All the main lines got replaced IIRC in the 80s, latest, can't find numbers right now, though apparently they rarely used lead there in the first place.
Also, btw, if you're already digging up water pipes it's quite easy to install some cable ducts while you're at it, put all those power and telco lines underground and stop looking like a 3rd world country. That kind of last-mile infrastructure should be managed by municipal-level monopoly, if an ISP wants to sell you something they can hook up to the municipality's IXP and rent the rest of the way to your house at fixed, fair, rates. It's a natural monopoly: It makes as much economical sense to run more than two power or telco connections to a house as it makes to run more than one street to your house: Costs a lot of money to run that second street and as soon as you did your competitor is going to lower their prices, which they can do because their investment already amortised, and leave you stranded with your investment because why would the residents of the house switch to your offering if your competitor is cheaper. There's an opportunity when switching from copper to fiber but fiber will last for the next 1000 years so it's not really a solution.
Come on now, you're actually making sense, we don't do that here in the US. Money and the amount of effort required rule everything.
It's just another case of "it costs too much to fix it, so just keep slapping a bandaid on it and kick it down the road", just like the rest of our infrastructure. Yet we have billions available to "defend" ourselves 🙄
More than billions, I think our defense budget was $766 billion in 2022 alone, at around 12% which was actually lower than 2021 which cost taxpayers 15% and 801 billion.
It's.. it's a big big problem, especially in a time where the U.S hasn't had a war on it's soil in a long, long time.
I get that we go to other countries and ~~help out a bit~~ get involved but we have issues on our own turf killing us from the inside.
Yeah, I just saw a YouTube video where the US has "frozen" the access to mega-yachts owned by Russian billionaires, but they can't seize them because they can't legally prove that the billionaires own them since they're registered in one country and owned by a shell corporation in another country. So if we (and other countries who are doing this) can eventually prove that they own said yachts, we can sell them, but until then we have to pay the constant upkeep on them to keep them in pristine condition... Which costs like 10 million a year per yacht...and we have multiple of them🤦♂️
No money to pay our citizens more, invest in our own infrastructure, or fund programs that our citizens need!
Nope, none of that. Can't even support our veterans that fought in the past wars that taxpayers had to pay trillions for but they can afford the salaries of the soldiers currently out there. It's like when a corporation cuts the 401k's of thousands of employees then turns around and hires thousands more...
The yachts ordeal is yet another example. All this $ frivolously spent on excess before basic needs of citizens are being met. The U.S could damned near be a utopia if we'd elect some people with common sense and quit voting in corrupt politicians.
I could rant about this for hours as it's just basic stuff. It's petty and boring so read on at your own risk.
We can't afford guns until the needs of the common people have been met.
We can't afford to imprison people for trivial stuff when they're not an active threat to society.
Healthcare is a right, not a privilege.
Food is a right. No one should have to decide between paying the rent and eating a proper meal.
Housing is a right and shouldn't be a for profit industry. Buying up tons of land in a scheme to get wealthy isn't good for anyone.
Banks just.. shouldn't exist the way that they do. Neither should the credit system, predatory loaning practices etc. Prices just keep going up due to this.
If banks/credit ceased to exist and loans stopped being made, then the price of things would have to adjust to reflect what the average person can actually afford which just makes sense right? If an average person can't make enough to afford their own home at regular wages within a few years by their self then either they aren't getting paid enough or asking prices are way too damned high.
There are just some practices in this world that are bad for it. Everyone knows the shit but no one will do anything because the people with the power to actually enforce change are benefitting too much from the same system to kill it.
Oh, and another one. Flint Michigan is supposedly enacting an (iirc) $9-10 million dollar bill to repair/replace their pipes in order for the people their to have clean drinking water and not get sick or die from lead poisoning. $9-10 mill would make all that difference yet our government won't pay it even though we're spending the better part of a trillion each year blowing things up. How petty is that? Can't take a penny out of our war money so people can have clean drinking water.. pathetic!
Yep it's disgusting. They're only willing to put money into things that will (potentially) make them money.
That, and bombs. Nice username btw
Thanks same to you 🤣
I wanted something completely different from what I used on Reddit (I didn't think I would still be using it 11 years later so I went with the name I used with everything), and couldn't think of anything, so I used the name of one of my 3 year old niece's books hahaha
Haha! Idk why but I somehow love you as a person already lol, that's all I needed to know you're a good dude or dudette
I actually just listened to a podcast about NYCs water supply. To back up your claim, they started pipe #3 around the 1970s and only recently finished (or should have by 2021, the episode was from before then)
Portland replaced most of its water and sewer pipes, AND built a massive 21 ft diameter sewer bypass and storage line 250 ft below the city over the course of about 10 years. When I was living there, the city went up and down every building on every street in my neighborhood to put in new sewer and water connections. Those crews were fast.
NYC is just too big, old and bureaucratic compared to other US cities.
Doing whole cities and streets in one go is always the better option: The crews know what they're doing, all the material and materiel is already on site and scheduling is uncomplicated.
Norderstedt's utility hooked up the whole city to fibre 1999 to 2002, total investment 43 million Euro for just over 80k inhabitants, roughly 540 Euro per head... but that number is a bit misleading the utility only made a loss of 10 million over that time span, or 125 Euro per inhabitant. A couple of years later all the money was recouped and they started expanding to neighbouring villages and the north of Hamburg. Asymmetric gigabit for 50 bucks (upload actually costs ISPs money while download gets paid by whoever's upload that is which is why asymmetric makes sense even if the connection is symmetric).
Kinda hard to do nowadays as the second Deutsche Telekom gets wind of any such initiative they suddenly decide that laying down fibre to replace their copper would, after all, make economical sense. Which is the reason why elsewhere here I'm advocating for municipal monopolies: Municipalities should be able to say "ok you didn't want to invest here, now it's too late you don't get to compete".
(And just in case btw you thought T-Mobile was a grand and nice company: No it isn't. It's a Deutsche Telekom subsidiary. The only reason they are customer-friendly in the US is because they're up against the baby bells there, in Germany Deutsche Telekom is the bell, created by splitting up and privatising the postal service, they own pretty much all the copper everywhere in the country).