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this post was submitted on 06 Dec 2023
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Can someone explain why this is Panera Bread's fault?
Because the drink was not clearly marked as being dangerous, a good article on this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/panera-adds-warning-caffeinated-lemonade-stores-lawsuit-customers-deat-rcna122628
If you want the tldr: the "lemonade" was located next to regular drinks and "Photos ... show it was advertised as “plant-based and clean,” containing as much caffeine as the restaurant’s dark roast coffee.".
Apparently Panera's defence is that each customer should look up and read the detailed ingredient list and have enough specialized nutritional knowledge to know which dosages constitute a danger to their life.
AKA the position of every libertarian ever. No big deal, just some collateral damage while the "free market" "corrects itself."
I wonder how much of that libertarian bullshit is organic and how much part of a hidden media campaign. This entire case is giving me the same vibes as that Macdonald's hot coffee case, where they successfully villified the victim.
But fortunately this is in the USA, there must be tens of thousands of lawyers salivating over this case.
They usually omit the part where the market correct itself only after you sue the shit out of them
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people who genuinely believe it's a good idea. Either they haven't thought it through all the way, or they just lack the empathy to give a shit about any damage caused to anyone but themselves and their loved ones.
To play devil's advocate (because I really don't care for Panera Bread or energy drinks), but...
“Because the drink was not clearly marked as being dangerous...”
It's actually NOT dangerous for healthy individuals. In the first death, the woman had a heart condition and knew it had caffeine in it, but obviously not her or Panera would know what her safe limit (if any) would be. Yet, she consumed it anyway.
In this more recent death, the man had multiple health risks, including high blood pressure, an “intellectual disability”, “blurry vision” and “ADHD” (not sure if he was also on medication for any of those).
Assuming it was self-serve, as most Panera Bread's are (I believe), he would have seen this:
Now, he many not have understood what any of that means, but he also purchased this drink “at least seven times over the course of two weeks” according to the lawsuit.
Having high blood pressure means that even the sugar would create problems for him.
He ended up drinking “3 servings”, which could be up to 2.5L (!!!) worth, which killed him. That's not a normal amount of any beverage, for any individual, in one sitting. Let alone a high sugar, high caffeine drink for someone with high blood pressure who may have also been on medication.
I guess my question would be: what else should restaurants do?
Someone with a health condition could be at risk when they overconsume on most foods that are high in one thing or another (fat, salt, sugar, caffeine, etc.)
Hell, drinking enough water in a short amount of time could kill you, so where does a restaurant's responsibility end and the individual's responsibility begin?
I mean, nuts also aren't dangerous to healthy people if you count healthy people as those without nut allergies...
The logic doesn't hold up vs how society is supposed to work.
And someone with a nut allergy will check ingredients before consuming food outside of the home, right?
Both of the deceased had health issues, not allergies. Both should have been taking it easy on sugary drinks, and caffeinated beverages. Both had consumed this same lemonade multiple times before.
I still can't fault panera bread. Someone posted a link to a lawer explaining this case, and they also said that Panera has no liabily here.
LegalEagle did an interesting video on this where he pointed out that companies don't actually have more of a duty of care when a customer has special requirements than they do with a customer who does not have special requirements, and that PER OUNCE the caffeine content of the charged lemonade was actually slightly less than the dark roast coffee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKwrMD7zDvM
That's still a shitton of caffeine. People don't realize it but coffee has as much if not more caffeine than energy drinks. For non coffee drinkers it's enough to throw a person into a panic attack.
Also, super sugary drinks mask the “bite” of caffeine and make it much easier to over-consume. Most people would balk at a 32oz cup of coffee, (a Starbucks venti is 20oz) but 32oz is a pretty common “large” size soda in America; I can walk into any gas station and find a 32oz soda cup. If I drank a single one of those, it would be equivalent to ~4 cups of coffee in a single drink. That’s more coffee than I’d normally drink all day, and it’s all in a single cup.
Maybe I need to rethink my coffee consumption
Thanks for sharing! It's cool to see Dr mike there, too!
They are selling a drink where one serving contains 97.5% of the recommended maximum daily dosage of a stimulating substance. We (me at least) now know that that maximum daily dosage is 400mg, but I only know that now because people died and it was prominently feaurered on social media.
A borderline drink like this, should be locked away in a liquor cabinet or only be dispensed by a licensed bartender. When selling the drink, the cashier/bartender should then also warn customers of the danger of the contents and that they should not drink it if they have already consumed caffeine that day, nor should they consume any other caffeine during the rest of the day. Clearly they aren't doing any of that, it's just a container in the general food area, with some nutritional information that most people not fully comprehend.
We all constantly buy and consume stuff without fully understanding what's in it. When buying stuff in the store, I only check the sugar contents in the detailed ingredient list. When buying stuff in a takeaway, I check nothing. I'm certainly not going to sleuth on the internet to find the max dosages of each ingredient. If a drink is put out in the open like this, then I assume that it's safe.
Tbh, I'm absolutely disgusted by the victim blaming in this case. It's not that man's fault that he was not smart and him not being smart, definitely does not make this death acceptable.
Again, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, and I'm not taking one side over the other... I'm just exploring the evidence presented.
To clarify, they sell this drink in two sizes. One has around the same amount of caffeine as a tall coffee at Starbucks, the other (852ml size) has under 400mg.
The FDA says that most people should have no more than 400mg (assuming they are 175lbs), but that's only because it produces unwanted side effects and/or can have long term health effects at that dose.
The actual lethal limit is something like 10,000mg.
The issue is that he had multiple health conditions, which would be exacerbated by both caffeine AND sugar, but not if he consumed reasonable quantities. This is why he was able to have the same drink many times in the past without incident.
While I agree that energy drinks shouldn't be sold to minors, since they are at a higher risk of harm and likely don't have the brains to understand those risks, what you describe goes way beyond the responsibility of a restaurant.
Would you expect a coffee shop to do the same? Literally ask questions they have no business asking, any time someone orders a caffeinated beverage or shock a tray of them?
The drinks at Panera are self-serve, btw.
To reiterate: IT IS SAFE. People with health conditions or taking meds needs to be acutely aware of what they should and should not consume, especially if they plan to consume it in larger quantities that's considered beyond normal.
And you also point out another problem: people assume that the food they consume is "safe", but ignore any health problems they might have which could make any food unsafe.
High blood pressure, a heart condition, gluten intolerance, food allergy, food interaction with meds, etc... anyone with any of those conditions should be hyper-aware of what goes into their body. If they ignore their limits, problems happen.
If you do have to avoid a certain food, ingredient, or nutrition, it's always best to ask to find out before consuming it. Or avoid it if you're unsure.
I agree, it's a tragedy. But I don't think Panera Bread can be blamed in this case.
the ld50 for a 175lb person is 15,240.75mg. 10,000 can EASILY kill someone. 5,000 probably still kills 1/4 of people (i didn't look up the curve). i would guess that 1000 is probably safe for most people, but even a 1% death rate is pretty high for a lemonade.
Yes, 10,000mg is the published lethal dose (approx. 21L of this lemonade.)
That would bring us to 10L of water, which could still be lethal to some people regardless of whether it had caffeine or sugar in it.
Thankfully, it's probably closer to 0.0001% for lemonade.
Caffeinated beverages are among the most widely consumed, probably even more so than water in developed countries.
Fortunately, caffeine related deaths, even in those who take caffeine pills, are quite rare in healthy adults. When it does happen, it's often when caffeine is abused, overconsumed, or the person has some underlying health condition and probably shouldn't be consuming caffeine anyway.
i had not considered the dilution. i honestly have no idea how this effects metabolization (i'm not a medical professional of any kind i just dabble in pharmacology). you seem pretty sure about this so you're probably right. i take one 200mg caffeine pill daily and thats about all of my consumption.
I could be wrong, too. I'm trying to consider all aspects of this case and to base my opinion.
I will say that if Panera is found guilty, I wonder how it will affect other restaurants, who serve foods that can cause death due to overconsumption in people with underlying health issues.
Will all salty, fatty, sugary, and caffeinated products have a Canadian cigarette-style warning labels on them? I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Perhaps "Chubby Emu" will make a video about "death by lemonade", as he (an MD) covers a lot of wacky food-related topics causing death or injury.
2800mg is lethal according to Mayo Clinic https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/caffeine/art-20045678
ld50 means half of all subjects died at that dosage. but subjects die all along the curve. I believe people commonly die at 2800mg, but that's far short of the ld50. id like to know where that dosage sits on the curve.
From your article, they're probably not going to win this suit.
Probably, apparently they also watered it down already + moved it behind the counter. They know they fucked up, they just seem to be stalling and victim blaming for now, maybe some astroturfing as well, probably trying to leverage a stronger position so that the other parties agree to a quiet settlement away from the media crossfires.
What I don't get is how people can defend this and proclaim with a straight face that the the intellectually impaired man should have been making smarter choices about what he consumed. Victim blaming in it's purest form.
Someone on the very fucking thread said "anyone with a half functioning brain" should be able to tell, and I'm like what the fuck am I reading?? Somebody fucking died. Why the fuck are people sucking a corporation's dick? Oh, boo hoo, they need to pay up and get better signage, poor Panera! It's wild. I can't imagine taking Panera's side.
390mg of caffeine on the lemonade. Who ever expects lemonade to have caffeine let alone 390mg? It's fucking insane. A can of coke has 35mg and thats enough to give me anxiety, sweats and tension. If I drank that thinking it was lemonade I would be fucked at another level.
To be fair that is frankly a ludicrous reaction for a healthy adult to have to 35mg of caffeine.
Thats not the point though, 390 mg is a lot even for a healthy adult.
On top of that, it wasn't labeled well at all. It sounds like they did not stat the caffeine content on the dispenser, but even if it did, not everybody has a good reference of how fucking much 390mg is.
It pretty much just looks like any other mundane nutrition facts. it doesn't call your attention to the amount at all or give any indication that 390mg might be high. I assumed it would be on the level of tea until I couldn't sleep at all the night after I had one (and I had it at like 2pm too, not even in the evening), and I still didn't make the connection until I later saw it in the news. I don't recall any other brand marketing using the term "charged" to indicate caffeine so I don't get people saying that everyone should understand that "charged" means caffeinated. "Spiked" and alcohol content sure, that's obvious, but "charged" is so vague.
Break it down on how much caffeine per ounce.
Because you're being intentionally dishonest with people acting like the lemonade and a can of coke are the same.
the 35mg of coke, comes in the 12oz can. The ~390, is from a 30oz drink.
Of the 3 flavors listed, none of them get to 390mg of caffeine, they all top out at 240 mg. But lets say it's unlisted now and the regular lemonade was 390 @ 30 oz.
You get about 100mg of caffeine from an 8oz of coffee.
Now before someone goes citing some different numbers, all levels of caffeine are subject to change will all sorts of variables, generally it's going to be lower, not higher.
So a can of coke is ~3mg of caffeine per ounce. A cup of coffee is 12.5 per ounce. And the lemonade is 13 per ounce @ the reported (but not listed on their website). If we go with the 3 flavors available, we get 8 mg per ounce.
So it's more than a coke, but around coffee. People need to stop acting like this is a small drink that is just packed with caffeine. Because the 30oz drink is effectively ~4 cups of coffee.
Just for kickers. Starbucks (because everyone knows that brand), sells a 30 ounce drink, the cold press, and it's listed at 360mg. https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2121255/iced/nutrition
So idk, maybe people could stop being disingenuous.
Comparing it to caffeine per ounce, and saying "it's just a little bit higher than coffee" is not the defense people think it is. I've quantified caffeine in drinks using NMR. Caffeine in coffee is a lot to begin with, out of all the drinks that we tested coffee was easily in the lead (with the exception of 5 hour energy drink that had 300mg per shot). And my biggest takeaway from the study was the incredible amount of caffeine that was in a simple cup of Starbucks tall coffee (upwards of 300mg). If we had tested the charged lemonade at the time, I would not have said "oh, it only has a little bit more caffeine than coffee", instead I would have said "holy shit it has more caffeine than coffee"
I don't drink caffeine, and I always work hard to avoid it. I keep track of which flavors and brands of sodas generally carry caffeine. If I were to drink an 8oz cup of coffee right now with "only" 100mg of caffeine it could very easily send me into a panic attack. Now imagine if I drank charged unknowingly, Probably would be drinking a lot more than 8oz if I thought it was just lemonade. The whole charged lemonade is just bonkers and Panera should have known better. They weren't selling a drink. They were selling a supplement.
Except it is. People are trying to compare a 30oz drink to that if 8 to 12oz drinks. So it's fair to being it down to a proper compatible value.
And there a decent amount of signage that the drink has caffeine. There's certainly no way you'd order online from Panera and not see that it has caffeine. If you were there in person you would have to have completely ignored the sign that's on the drink itself. And then chugged 30 oz of drink fast enough as to not notice the caffeine.
I have a fairly high tolerance to caffeine and even I can tell even after a single cup of coffee it's effects, before I finish the first cup. So if someone has no tolerance for it I would have to assume you'd notice sooner. Well before downing 30oz worth.
We'll see how it plays out. I personally think it was a bad idea to begin with but I probably have a bias do to my sensitivity to caffeine. I can see other people who are are used to it and who drink a lot of coffee not being able to see potential issues.
35mg caffiene shouldnt cause that
There is a reason I don't take caffeine
You mean 35 mg of caffeine doesn't do that to you. Food safety laws aren't written for the average person they are written for the more vulnerable.
35mg caffiene alone should not cause any notable symptoms to an adult that doesn't habitually consume caffiene who does not have any prexisting weight concerns or conditions. This was recently confirmed to me by an endocrinologist. It's about half of a latte. Being vulnerable would be the cause of the issue in your example, not the caffiene.
That's the point, actually some people are extremely sensitive to caffeine, so it needs clear labelling. That labelling is not for you.
Because they sell what looks and tastes like normal lemonade, without any safeguards to make sure you don't accidentally drink four times the daily recommended limit in one sitting. The signs display the caffeine content in small text next to the calories, which you and I both know that nobody who doesn't count their calories reads. It's called "charged" lemonade, in small yellow text on the green sign. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the lemonade in that lemonade dispenser is normal lemonade.
But why hold them accountable? Starbucks wouldn't be in trouble if you drank 90 oz of coffee!
Coffee obviously has caffeine, it's the kind of inseparable from the concept of it. Same goes to a lesser extent with many sodas–anyone who has to watch their caffeine likely knows that coke and doctor pepper have caffeine. But lemonade? Who sells caffeinated lemonade? I guess G-Fuel does, but someone with a heart condition probably knows not to order G-Fuel.
Lemonade is the safe choice when you don't want caffeine, because to my knowledge nobody (besides Panera bread) has ever sold caffeinated lemonade out of self-service dispensers.
They never disclosed how much caffeine/sugar was in the drink till after the first death. Too much caffeine can kill you.
I don't think that's true. In an article on Today published before the first death, they mention that "Though Panera declined to comment to TODAY.com, it posts nutritional content on signage and at drink dispenser stations in-store and at its drive-thru menu. Online and in-app, nutritional facts are posted on each of Panera’s menu items, and note when an item contains caffeine as well."
The FDA also notes that 400mg is totally safe, and in fact, most regular coffee drinkers consume more than that on a daily basis.
The issue is that someone with a known health condition (both deaths), consumed a product they shouldn't have been consuming in large quantities. And they had previously consumed the same drink on multiple occasions prior, so it's hard to claim ignorance.
The allagation is that Panera did not adequately communicate the contents of the lemonade.
I'm assuming he used a self-serve drink station, as I believe all Panera Bread's have.
This is how it would look:
This was from another report:
"The lawsuit filed in Delaware disclosed that Brown had ordered Panera’s charged lemonade at least seven times over the course of two weeks in September and October. It also disclosed Brown's medical conditions, including high blood pressure, developmental delay, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and a chromosomal disorder causing a mild intellectual disability and blurry vision. The lawsuit said Brown believed the Panera charged lemonade was safe since it was not advertised as an energy drink."
Now, if Brown has a "mild intellectual disability" and a "developmental delay", and "blurry vision", is it not possible that he simply couldn't read or understand what the contents of the drink were?
Even the sugar, which I'm sure everyone knows is in lemonade, would have exacerbated his high blood pressure, yet he had THREE (upwards of 2.5L worth in a short amount of time!)?
"The lawsuit alleges that Panera "knew or should have known" that the charged lemonade could pose risks, particularly to children, pregnant and breastfeeding women, and individuals sensitive to caffeine."
Unless he was tricked or forced into drinking these, I don't think that the lawsuit will be successful. Had he died consuming the food they served in moderation, there could be settlement. But even that would a stretch to win since he had a health condition that Panera Bread (or each different employee) wouldn't be aware of, or responsible for.
Because the beverages were poorly marked. People don’t assume lemonade has caffeine, especially energy drink levels of caffeine.