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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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politics
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I said that nothing good could come from pretending to negotiate immigration with radically anti-immigrant fascists who aren't even PRETENDING to negotiate in good faith.
Three things can result:
No changes
Changes for the worse and nothing else (by far the most likely)
Tiny changes for the better on one or two very specific things in exchange for massive systemic change for the worse.
You're pretending that the GOP is a normal and legitimate political party rather than a fundamentally dishonest fascist movement.
Is your name Neville? Because you're being very Chamberlain right now
So again, you’re saying he shouldn’t negotiate with republicans which will result in nothing getting done.
How is what I said a strawman?
By inferring that what I want is "nothing getting done", when in reality I've been very clear that what I want is for things to not get worse.
When you give concessions to fascists, things get worse. STOP pretending that the GOP is a legitimate party operating in good faith.
The GOP as a party supports fascism yes. But individual members of Congress are on a spectrum and can be influenced to vote in our best interests.
That’s why there are almost always some members that aren’t voting along their party lines. It’s happened like this since the inception of our government.
That’s why diplomacy is important.
Just look at how democrats won concessions from the house on the spending bill recently and made republicans look stupid in the process.
That happened because of diplomacy. Your approach would’ve resulted in a government shutdown instead.
If you truly believe that, I have a mountain chalet in Florida to sell you.
Name one time since 2016 that anything good came from negotiating with the GOP on immigration. Hell, name one time in this MILLENNIUM.
Anything even resembling change for the better on immigration being amongst the exceptions that makes your "almost" necessary.
Spending is not the same thing as immigration. While fascists don't like social programs that benefit those who need help, they don't have an automatic visceral fear and hatred of them like they do with immigrants.
As an aside, they were already doing that themselves
No. The Republicans hold the federal government hostage every time raising the debt ceiling comes up. It's as much part of what they do as demagougery in general is.
Letting them persecute and otherwise abuse immigrants more or less doesn't change that. It just lets them persecute and otherwise abuse immigrants more.
The idea is to negotiate in good faith to show that is our stance and not give in to bad faith negotiations.
If we don’t negotiate at all then there’s no way forward.
Not true. If your ideas are good enough and you show that you're not too weak and/or corrupt to implement them, you get big enough majorities to bypass the GOP completely, which you should then do.
It's worse to negotiate in good faith with those that are negotiating in bad faith than to not negotiate at all, since those negotiating in bad faith have no reason to give any concessions and every reason to demand concessions from their opposition.
Same goes for arguing I'm good faith with people who are either arguing in bad faith or basing their entire argument on a commonly believed false premise.
So I'm gonna let you go gaslight someone else now. Have the day you deserve.
You’re ignoring the optics of not negotiating. This is politics. How you present yourself impacts voters’ opinions.
No one is gaslighting or making strawman arguments or any other psych buzzwords over here.
You have a good one too. I’m glad the internet allows us to have these conversations because I think it is important to have discorse with people of opposing views.