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this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2023
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So? Does it matter if it was 1400, 1300 or 1139? It's mass murder anyway, and Hamas are still bastards for killing them. And Netanyahu is still a bastard for using it as a free pass on bombing Gaza. These numbers don't change anything at all.
Can one imagine a rave party with a thousand+ of people, and then imagine them all dead? Or a european-like district with housing, schools, shops for 13k people - you can see them on Google Maps, they were pretty sweet in spite of israeli politics - all leveled down to the ground. It's a rave party not unlike one happening near you, this neighborhood is not unlike yours. These people may not speak english, yet they share basic things with you, like, they could've liked the same songs, the same movies like you do, some of them could've even been trekkies. And now they are lost. They won't have a child, they won't share a funny story over drinks with friends, they won't build that birdhouse their elderly parents asked for. They are dead, non-existent, and all work put into making them proper adults is lost. And whatever it's a thousand, or a thousand of thosands, it's too much to ignore. Every person shot or slayed there is too much to ignore. There should be a ceasefire agreement first, it needs to stop.
I know right, imagine if it had been over 15,000 innocent people that had had their homes destroyed and their family and friends killed over something they had nothing to do with.
Did that happen?
Also while atrocities were committed on October 7th, AFAIK there was no mass murder. And if you're wondering how so many people died then, there's an unknown but significant number of IDF-inflicted casualties in those 1139.
I'm not sure what's the definition of mass murder but advancing in a city/place and start killing indiscriminately sounds a lot like it.
Yes but I'm saying that didn't happen to my knowledge. From what we know so far about the attack, the IDF response was far from careful not to harm civilians, and in some cases chose to actively kill hostages to get the Hamas soldiers who captured them.
Israel so far hasn't done anything close to releasing the number of people who died to IDF fire, or just in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF, and until they do that they have no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.
~ 1/3 military kills is definitely not "indiscriminately killing". These numbers change everything.
It's not a mass murder anymore. Oct7 was a justified targeted retaliation.
67% civilian casualties is a universally abhorrent figure, and shows a complete disregard for the value of innocent human lives.
Also, mass murder is generally defined as the killing of 3 or more persons at a time. Not exactly a high bar.
Is it? I mean civilians getting killed is bad no matter the number, and I'm not denying Hamas soldiers committed war crimes, but for example in Iraq the US coalition's percentage was 77%.
Because everyone is so happy that Iraq happened? Here, fixed:
Yeah I'm not saying 67% civilians is a good number, only that it's a normal number.
Ah, I see what you’re saying now. Unfortunately yes, 67% it isn’t particularly out of the ordinary. Perhaps I’m in a bit of a bubble, but I think/hope the vast majority of people consider this historical “normal” to be “abhorrent” these days. Such would be a positive change for society.
Perhaps I should also clarify that by “universal”, I don’t mean “everyone agrees”, but rather “regardless of the circumstances”. I included this to suggest that I think the civilian casualty rate in Palestine is also abhorrent, and I don’t think the October 7 attacks justify it in the slightest.
That's true. Normally I'd talk about not even close to all the civilian casualties are Hamas-inflicted, but mostly I wanted to point out that the popular Israeli narrative of "they entered our villages and indiscriminately killed our people in a brutal terrorist attack" is wrong even going by the 67% alone.
My man you better not start reading about American civilian casualty figures. And ESPECIALLY not about israel ones.
Also most israeli civilians are IDF reservists so they are in fact uncounted soldiers. The IDF just called up 300.000 "innocent civilians" to commit genocide in Gaza? lmao.
The best number is how little children were killed in compared to the total amount of people.
Let me guess, I would find more universally abhorrent figures? What exactly do you think “universally” means?
Where the fuck did you get that from?
Do you think Netanyahu just summoned 300.000 reservists out of thin air to commit genocide in Gaza with?
Those "innocent israeli civilians" are now magically members of the IDF.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel
In contrary, only a small percentage of Palestinians are part of Hamas and they have no conscription in Gaza.
I don’t follow your argument. So civilians that go through compulsory military service are not civilians? Korea, Vietnam, and Denmark have basically no civilian population? Or is it wartime conscription that you have a problem with? Is every American citizen an attack target because they theoretically could be conscripted as a response to the attack?
If they are IDF conscripts they're not civilians. Don't even dare to compare israeli colonists to Koreans.
If people went into Hamas military service and become a "Hamas reservist" then you wouldn't even doubt to call those people terrorists.
There are actual israelis that rejected IDF service and even people that advocates for peace that were killed which is very sad. But the majority are military.
Hah, why not? Their conscription system works the same way, if you haven’t noticed.
Justified retaliation, and an operation meant to get concessions out of Israel for Gazans. That's why they took the hostages.
Go fuck yourself with a fork if 1139, or even 500 isn't a mass murder in your dictionary, I don't feel like I want to talk to you. You don't help palestinians by downplaying what hamas bastards did to jews while enjoying golf courses in Quatar.
Fuck yourself first asshole they used this excuse to declare a genocide and it comes out Israeli leadership fucking funded Hamas and allowed this shit to happen.
Hamas sucks but everything they did has Israeli hands helping and now Israeli hands are committing genocide.
How fuckin stupid are you?
You'd go to excuse Hamas, won't you?
Get. Lost. Already.
Yes i absolutely will excuse Hamas. They're a rabid angry abused dog taunted and then their owner secretly unlocked the fence and cried "what a bad dog look what it did to me!"
Israel is the start and end of this Hamas is a pawn. Fuck off idiot.
You are honest about that. I'd give you that. It feels refreshing to find an opponent who stays by their ideals. Thinking you are terminally wrong, I respect you still being there.
Excuse Hamas for what?
Launching an attack on a white supremacist settler-colonialist state that has been waging war on Palestinians since 1949?
I think it is you that needs to get lost.
Killing a thousand of people is ok, right?
You know you can hate both Hamas and Israeli monsters?
Not keeping up with current events, are you?
Or are you just so desperate to cling to your pro-Israeli narrative that you will simply ignore them?
Do you suggest I've hallucinated all these killings done by Hamas? They did indeed happened. There are still hostages kept by them in Gaza.
IDF isn't right using that as a reason to murder 10x more. Netanyahu should be roped on the closest tree branch if you'd ask me. But israelis doing these crimes don't excuse Hamas's attack. It is still a morbid act of terror that should be remembered and acted upon.
It's down to below your hysterical "thousands" now, apologist... you know what that means? It means Hamas showed far more restraint during their attack than Israel has in all it's genocidal existence.
You can shove your "let's-pretend-this-is-all-Netenyahu's-fault" narrative where the sun don't shine. Israel has been a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state since the day it was created.
No. It thoroughly justifies Hamas's attack. It would still be justified if Hamas carried out ten similar attacks. Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonialist state - the use of force against it is justified by default.
I'd cheer you for being so stubborn. It sure needs a lot of effort to stay this way.
So with that much restraint it means their act of terror is justified? That they could freely kill as long as they don't go off IFD's treshold? Hamas are monsters and I'm surprised you are covering their crimes.
Palestinians from Gaza had it better than what they have now, right? Even if you could just unthink Israel as a country, better solution could've been to fight for their rights before october '23. And it's still the truth. Undoing the country that's here for 50+ years is not on the table, but bullying it into respecting palestinians is. Once that fucking crusade ends.
No, Netanyahu isn't the only one responsible for that, yet he's the face of that offensive, and should be charged accordingly.
You've lost me there buddy. I can't approve such attacks, even if they are said to be against an opressor. Nope. Hamas are bastards, end of the line.
TLDR - you'd prefer Palestinians to accept their extermination quietly so that liberals like you can pretend your precious evil empire isn't an evil empire.
Oh, really? And who is going to "bully" the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state like this? The largest and most successful white supremacist settler-colonialist state of them all?
You find that fantasy quite convenient, don't you?
Of course you can't - you love the oppressor and hate the oppressed... just like ole' Malcom X said.
Let us rewind back to times before this attack.
What's your solution is? Is it realistic?
Don't need a time machine, Clyde - the solution is still the same. Dismantle the white supremacist settler-colonialist state that is the cause of the conflict.
Do tell... were you also around in the 80s to tell people how dismantling the Apartheid-state in South Africa was "unrealistic?"
I wasn't. But would you do with all these people living there for the last fifty years? It's easier to imagine that in crimean case where it was only a decade at most, you can claim all property-related papers illigitimate since they were approved by an illigitimate government, and here it goes... But in Israel itso happens this administration lasted for two, three generations, and wasn't questioned since that. How to go about that? Would you, like, revoke the citizenship of that country from those born there? Would you revoke their property rights to homes they lived in for 20+ years? And are regular people there responible for their country being an apartheid state?
How exactly you see it happening?
Guess you'd think I'm a stupid israeli apologist, okay. So to conserve my and your time, can you write your solution to that problem short, like in five bullet points? What would you do if you have ultimate power over this plot of land?
That's not up to me, is it? That's for Palestinians and ex-Israelis to decide.
What would be the point of revoking the citizenship of a state that doesn't exist any more?
I'm assuming you're not talking about people like this?
What did you think we mean when we say Israel is a white supremacist settler colonialist state?
You're asking the wrong questions, Clyde. A better question would be... would all the Palestinian villages that the Israelis destroyed and tried to erase from history be rebuilt?
Yes. To what degree such responsibility extends can be determined on a case by case basis, but the short answer is... yes. For instance, the shareholders in Israeli corporations are vastly, vastly more responsible than simply somebody who was coerced into doing two years of military service in the IDF - and that extends to people outside of Israel, too.
I literally responded to that in the very next sentence. Until the IDF counts the people their own fire killed, and the ones who died in the crossfire, both of which exist in significant numbers, we have no evidence Hamas did anything close to mass murder. Also that 1139 is counting the 373 security force people, which are legitimate military targets.
So ~800 civilians dead still, right?
You... just ignored everything I said except the numbers right?
No?
You mean these 800-something people died in a cross-fire? I feel like I don't uderstand you.
The crossfire, reckless (sometimes deliberate when they were taken hostage) IDF fire and Hamas war crimes. These three categories all contain significant numbers of people, so until we know who killed how many and where there are no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.