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this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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chapotraphouse
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well my country is currently ran by the wife of a former president in a sort of bill clinton- hillary clinton political dynasty situation. her supporters are basically pampered college grad white collar people, amerisceptic national bourgeois, anti-corruption people, college progressives, and I guess now anti-crime hardliners. notably she has stopped paying large amounts of people in the public sector and I don’t want to say hires scabs against all the people protesting this because they’re not paid either they just want the possibility of being paid in the future
Well without even touching any of that you gotta remember can strongly support a politician's geopolitical moves without even having formed an opinion on how capable they are at home, that's how I feel. I was expecting Brazil, I have some criticism of Lula loaded up now darn.
communism is internationalist. it’s about supporting the proletarians of the world not supporting some in some countries and supporting capitalists in others. this is the basic amount of solidarity to be expected from comrades
Which is exactly why we critically support things that work against the hegenomy of the imperial core?
the united states arrested our former president letting the democratic socialist take power lmao. you’re naive if you think demsocs actually oppose this “hegemony of the imperial core” whatever that would look like in practice
Hondorus sounds like an usual situation. Everywhere else in Latam demsocs like Evo get opposition because they take resources away from the imperial core by nationalizing them.
the resources are taken away from the individual owners ownership wise which sucks for those individual capitalists but aren’t taken away from the world market. the commodity relationship remains intact making it not against the west
So why was Evo couped?
I don’t have access to their correspondence but I’m gonna assume Áñez wanted power and opposed Evos reforms, the OAS didn’t want to see reduced exports and political power entrenchment, and Exxon probably donated a fair amount of money to allow economic liberalization to take place. I hope you realize people in our own countries have their own thoughts and motivations and aren’t just automatons that do what the CIA says. the coup in my own country was done by military generals upset over having their airbases turned over to civilian use as an example
How about Pedro Castillo? Does it upset you that online leftists reacted negatively to the lawfare coup against him, despite having already marked him as a kind of centrist milquetoast?
Nobody I can recall framed his actions as based anticolonialism, besides the fact he didn't really get to do anything, they just observed the financial, legal, and military pressures the core places on the periphery.
I’m not upset seeing people opposed to america meddling in other countries affairs. I think america meddling in other countries affairs is both bad for other countries short term and bad for america long term. I’m opposed to assuming that because a country appears to have a government nominally opposed to the united states it’s for the working class movement. this ideology has its roots in american trotskyist parties in the 60s like the worker’s world party and it’s global class war line. I consider my own government or the pedro castillo government to be better than the opposition by a large margin but I don’t consider either to be good
I don't think there are any "reverse nationalists" or "marcyists" or "campists" or whatever you may call them around here. I've checked. Quite the opposite. Every time SCMP or Jacobin says jump we ask how high before we double back.
That's not what an anti-war, anti-imperialist, anti-colonial perspective implies when it results in viewing geopolitical moves taken by far right anticommunists who have been cornered in a situation where it's in their best interests as overall good because it limits the exploitation of natural resources & labor power.
Most people have pointed to the supply shock caused by COVID and the inter-imperialist squabble that played out between Europe and the US fought through the Ukraine proxy war as being the straw that broke the camel's back & forced these moves which are pro-3rd world sovereignty.
I don't think people should jump to conclusions about this though like they have with Gabon recently. Not even an anti-French coup! Silly!
I don't find the refrain of "calling it a CIA coup denies the agency of people in the periphery" too convincing. Find me a person who won't point to elements which the CIA allies with domestically when there's been a coup. I don't think it's ever happened Ex Nihilo. Holding up a bible sends a pretty clear message about the alliance to be formed with Christian nationalism in North America.
you may consider marcyism to be non existent but marcy’s theories, in modified forms at least, maintains a high level of belief in the western or more specifically english cultural hegemony and in the united states specifically the PSL is a former marcyist organization and it’s the largest marxist leninist org in the country. and your explanation is falling on deaf ears when all I’m hearing is “don’t organize against your demsoc government because it’s fighting for national sovereignty against the united states” (sovereignty for national bourgeois who oppress all the same)
Man I'm just 360° noscoping these. Yeah you would have scolded Iraq War protestors.
Are the Marcyists in the room with us right now?
Im sorry but where are you getting the dont organize against them thing i still dont get that. I havent seen anyone say that.
Who said anything about you being a CIA mouthpiece? (I mean this facetiously.)
Again i cant stress enough how unusual the situation in your country is versus the historical trends in the region...
The idea that the coup in Bolivia didnt have a strong imperial influence behind it is definitly heterodox. Obviously people there had their own motivations, but when i ask "why was Evo couped" i mean "why was it backed by imperial powers"
Also you understand that the CIA and state department serve the needs of those "individual capitalists" that stand to lose right?
This makes me wonder your thoughts on things like Hong Kong and the color revolutions.
:think-mark: Honduras
You may notice that that person is not in the meme?
neither is maduro are you gonna say maduro isn’t beloved as a “resister against the imperial core”
Are you concerned Maduro's destroying the legacy of the Bolivarian revolution, or do you expect me to believe that Exxon's deal with the Guyanese govt is something which benefits the working class there? I'm interested where you're going with this, since you brought it up.
I’m not south american and can’t speak to how good an ideology bolívarianism is. I only know a war over some empty jungles to support some nationalist claim to land doesn’t help the workers in either country. and that the communist party in venezuela doesn’t back maduro and considers him a rentier capitalist sitting on oil while the workers can barely afford bread
What do you mean by "some nationalist claim to land"?
Do you mean the claim that was ruled in the UK's favor with the US representing Vz bc of the Monroe doctrine? Which Vz has opposed for over a century? Which we are now enforcing again with the Monroe doctrine explicitly?
You believe all the Venezuelans who participated in the referendum are mistaken about their interests?
you’re using the term monroe doctrine pretty willy-nilly. it was a doctrine opposing imperial powers that weren’t america influencing latin america not to assist other imperial powers to divide up latin america. even still what does a treaty written up by the spanish empire have to do with whether or not venezuela is justified in starting a war. that’s like definitionally an imperialist war between venezuela and guyana. if americans had a referendum to annex canada to oppose british imperialism i’d also question the socialistic nature of that too
Venezuela isn’t starting a war, so you can start by not making up nonsense like that to slander them?
only time can tell but I’m gonna take the possibility as seriously as lula does and he sent troops to the border over the referendum. my own country has fought a war over stupider reasons 50 years ago so I’m not gonna count out venezuela
"Only time can tell" is a sweet way of saying you don't take what the people of Venezuela or Guyana have been posting about this seriously.
It's the US pushing their claim with the Monroe Doctrine literally the White House referenced it in the statement (we can debate whether they are double dipping on the Monroe Doctrine later) for Exxon Mobil to keep their deal where they get to
DRINK THEIR MILKSHAKE
with wild abandon that is pushing for a war. I don't think making some cynical "don't rock the boat" argument in light of that makes sense
This can all coexist with criticism of Maduro's policies, which I have seen welcomed by the Venezuelan government from a grassroots level. Not to gush.
so you’re saying that exxon mobile existing in guyana is a threat of war to venezuela?
How closely have you been following the recent events around this? How did you already take a position if you haven't read about the Exxon agreement the US wants to enforce? Sorry for being unclear before with "drink their milkshake" but it's a really juicy deal for the US with practically nothing for Guyana.
That's why SOUTHCOM is doing exercises around there. To threaten to attack Venezuela if their Guyana-Essequibo claim is enforced.
The US is acting as the enforcer of this claim by Guyana because it helps Exxon continue to steal from them. They're the ones pushing for war by making overtures like they're going to Gaddafi Maduro, which you'd have to be a defeatist or not very up to date on the US military adventures to believe.
you say “To threaten to attack Venezuela if their Guyana-Essequibo claim is enforced” which is just a euphemistic way to say if venezuela invaded guyana
I'm not being euphemistic when I say they have S-300s those things are specifically designed to destroy F-16s, but your framing of Venezuela as warmongering is totally baseless. Take notice of what's happening in Brazil other than troop movements.
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/venezuela-guyana-presidents-meet-amid-territorial-dispute-2023-12-14/
how does brazil negotiating both sides to agree to no war not make venezuela aggressive? brazil still clearly believed tensions could escalate due to venezuela’s actions
Why are you implicitly accepting the authority of the US to build up military forces with Guyana to ensure Exxon can enforce their oil claim, knowing the International Court System is in our pocket? How is Venezuela being pushed away from that system so they can't reverse an illegitimate colonial legal ruling "aggression"?
maybe because venezuela did the referendum first and started building infrastructure with the military first? not to mention that venezuela’s claims are from a colonial legal ruling under the spanish lol. I don’t take sides between english and spanish colonial claims
You're trying to use the same strategy people did last February, it's not going to work because only Fox News grandpas and weirdos who watch Jack Ryan hate Venezuela, whereas libs at large think Russians are animals.
Venezuela has asserted the claim over the Essequibo region since independence. The US interest is since oil was discovered in 2015. The US has no business in those waters.
That's not what you're taking a side on and you know it.
Even setting aside the necessity of breaking up the petrodollar (the diplomatic & financial power of which is directly implicated in the Gaza genocide) by securing more resource nationalism, the Guyana government has clearly not set out to negotiate a deal on behalf of the people, but in service of setting up a long-term deal with Exxon that is illegal for future governments to alter, that's how much they know they're about to head out the door with cash falling out of their briefcases. It is safe to say the oil is better off in the Venezuelan territory.