cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/9648279
I would like to premise this with the following:
- The best approach is probably just testing out each and every editor that interests me until I've found what works best for me.
- However, I wonder to what degree a test as such would be representative when the likes of Emacs and (Neo)Vim are considered; both of which are known for being a life time learning process.
- I don't literally expect Emacs or (Neo)Vim to be drop-in replacements for any IDE. Some of the most basic IDE-functions are absent by default and some (perhaps more advanced) functionality might simply not be attainable at all.
- I am not interested in anything that remotely resembles a flame war. The community at Lemmy has so far been very kind to me; let's keep it that way 😜.
Motivation
I've had experiences with Atom, VS Code and some of Jetbrains' IDEs like Pycharm and Rider. While I've been generally content with all of them, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I'm forced to switch IDEs because their lifetimes and/or lack of extensibility doesn't allow me to responsibly continue using them. As such, I'm interested in a long time investment that will grow as I will. Both Emacs and (Neo)Vim have passed the test of time and I honestly don't think they'll cease to exist in the upcoming decades, that's why I would love to start using either one of them.
Furthermore, Vi(m) keybindings seem to be somewhat ubiquitous and almost any IDE offers some support. As such, improving my Vi(m)-game should only net-positive my productivity (at least eventually). Also, fluency will benefit me whenever I'm remote accessing any random server as they will always have Vi(m) installed. Thankfully, this doesn't force me to use Vi(m) (or Neovim) just yet, because Emacs offers with Evil perhaps the single best Vi(m) implementation; outside of native Vi(m)*.
My setup:
- I'm on a custom image of uBlue using their startingpoint as template. For those unaware; an oversimplification would be that it is Fedora Silverblue with some extras.
- As such, I would like to have my developer environments local and have used Distrobox to that extent using steps similar to the ones outlined over here. But I'm not married to that specific way of utilizing local containers. So please feel free to recommend me something that's at least as good.
- If I go for Emacs, then I will definitely rely on Evil.
- If possible, I would like to use it for C#, Python and Rust. Furthermore, I engage in editing Bash scripts, Dockerfiles, Linux config files, texts written in Latex and/or Markdown and other files written in Nix or JSON. As both are very extensible, I don't expect any issues, but I might be wrong.
Questions:
- First of all, does it make sense for me to only consider these two?
- Can the split between Vim and Neovim be interpreted as the first schism and as such be a forebode for what's yet to come?
- Google Trends suggests that Neo(Vim) is ever-popular. On the other hand; not only is Emacs relatively less popular, but its popularity seems to be slightly declining. Should this worry me regarding their long-time future? Especially considering that a thriving community is literally the lifeline for both of them.
- For those that have used both extensively, which one do you prefer (if any) and why?
- While I understand that the power of both of them lies primarily in how one can literally make them behave however suits their workflow best. Therefore, the use of premade configs and/or starter kits/distributions should (ideally) only be used either temporary or as a starting point. However, at this point, they provide a decent showcase of what each 'platform' has to offer. So:
I have used vim/neovim for years and cannot go back to a non-modal editor. But TBH I got sick of its configuration. You need far too many plugins and config to get things into a sane working order to be usable on a day to day bases for any type of development. It takes ages to learn and become as productive as you were before and a lifetime to refine.
For the past year or so I have switched to helix and don't plan on going back to vim/neovim as my main editor ever again. It is a modal editor that is a mix between Neovim and Kakoune editors. It comes with batteries included, and supports an IDE like experience out the box with treesitter syntax highlighting and LSP language integrations out the box. My whole config is like 6 lines long yet it works far better then my old neovim setup with a multitude of plugins and hundreds of lines of config. It is like what AstroNvim, LazyVim, LunarVim and NvChad etc are trying to do to vim/neovim but instead has built in support for all the things they rely on plugins for. Which means there is no need to constantly keep them up to date nor weird edge cases where one plugin does quite integrate with another smoothly. It is all built in so things are designed to work well together.
But it currently does lack any plugin support. So if something is not built in that you want you have to make due without it (well, except language support, adding new LSPs is not too hard). And plugin support is being worked on so even this will be a non-issue hopefully in a year or two.
Interesting. Though I can definitely see where you're coming from. Uhmm.., have you used any of the Neovim distributions to make maintenance easier?
Both Helix and Lapce have certainly piqued my interest as FOSS alternatives to VS Code. However, both have issues related to how well their current Vi(m) implementation is. As you've touched upon it; Helix' keybindings and 'sentence-structures' are different to those found on Vi(m).
Furthermore, neither of the two have existed long enough to be able to profess any statement regarding their longevity. Like, there's no guarantee that I can keep using either of the two 20 years into the future. While no program is able to 100% guarantee that, undoubtedly, the track records for both Emacs and Vi(m) testify that -if anything- they would be the most likely ones to survive 20 years down the line; like how they've done for the last couple of decades.
I appreciate the input, but I simply don't want to invest in a program whose future is very unclear to me at this point in time.
Unless you really want vim bindings, try them out. At least Helix is based on the Kakoune editing model which is the editor I use, and I much prefer the way Kakoune works over vim, while still being close enough so that you can pick it up quickly if you already know vim and the other way around.
I kinda do for how ubiquitous Vim keybindings are.
Regardless, I think I will try it out after I'm at least somewhat productive with Vim.
I think preference is generally subjective. So you're completely in your right to prefer Kakoune over Vim (and vice versa). Though, if possible, would you mind elaborating what you prefer exactly and why?
Doesn't that disrupt muscle memory?
Yeah, that’s a great reason to stick with it. It’s unfortunate that nothing really has Kakoune bindings other than Kakoune.
Of course, I know preference is subjective. That’s why I didn’t say “it’s better” :P Could very well be that vim works better for you.
The big reason I like them more is the concept of selections. Basically instead of a cursor you have a set of selections with start and end position (which could be the same position for a normal cursor), instead of having the object to delete as a parameter. For example, to delete two words it’s ‘d2w’ in vim, while it’s ’2wd’ in Kakoune. And after you type the ‘2w’, the selection shows what you’re about to delete, because it’s a separate command. It’s more useful when you’re operating on larger blocks of text, of course, or chain multiple commands together to create the selection you want. Sure, you can use visual mode in vim but it feels like an afterthought in a lot of ways.
I’ve already mentioned it but you can also have multiple selections at the same time, which I don’t think vim really does (I could be wrong though). This makes bulk operations really easy since they work exactly the same as operations on a single selection. For example, if you want to prepend let’s say “foo” to the next 10 lines, in Kakoune it would be ‘9CIfoo’ where C creates a selection one line under the current one, and I works the same as in vim. I believe you’d have to use macros for that in vim, something like ‘qqIfoojq9@q’.
Those two are I think the main reasons I like Kakoune.
I haven’t really had problems with it, at least. Maybe because I’ve used vim for a long time before Kakoune. TBH I also don’t really use vim a lot anymore except on one remote machine that isn’t mine.
That's indeed very unfortunate...
That genuinely seems like very useful functionality. Thanks for pointing that out!
Could you perhaps give some examples so that I can better understand/grasp why you feel that's the case?
I am very grateful to you for sharing your experiences as a long time Vim user that currently prefers Kakoune over it. It has definitely impressed me and made me a lot more curious towards it. And I genuinely feel like I should think this over properly before I rashly commit to Vi(m). Thank you for raising such awareness!
Hmm, one I guess is that it is not "permanent" and deactivates after one command (in Kakoune, you have to explicitly do ';' to collapse the selection to its end (which you can flip with the start using 'alt+;') or move around without extending the selection). That's really the only thing I can think of at the moment and I feel like often it really doesn't matter tbh, so maybe I was just talking out of my ass there a bit lmao.
Apparently you can quickly reselect it in vim with 'gv' though, which I never checked until now. That's useful to know.
One thing I'm really missing from vim though is that it can list directories, has a hex editor, and can read a bunch of other file formats. I think it can even edit remote files over sftp, but maybe I'm confusing that with Emacs. Kakoune just does local text files (though you can of course do stuff like '%|xxd' to pipe the file through xxd to get a hex view, edit and then '%|xxd -r' and save but that feels very very sketchy).
Regardless; thank you for mentioning this!
Hehe, thanks for sharing that; might become useful soon 😅.
Until yesterday I knew almost nothing about Kakoune. But I've since tried to do some reading; while there's still a lot to uncover and/or explore, I feel as if it tries to offer a more focused experience (for better or worse).