view the rest of the comments
World News
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
So the IDF does admit fault when it accidentally hits non-military targets. This seems to weaken the case that they do so intentionally and lie about legal targets. If this is how they behave, why wouldn't they do so here?
Maybe it's because it was reported by Israel public broadcaster KAN. They also admitted fault when they shot those unarmed civilians holding makeshift white flags which ended up being hostages.
We do know half the bombs dropped are precision and half are 'dumb bombs.' I don't know of any comprehensive report on it but it seems to me that they admit fault when there's no possible plausible deniability.
I don't really see how that weakens the case that they target civilians when they have been repeatedly bombing schools, hospitals, refugee camps, residential areas, and self-proclaimed safe zones for months; justifying it by claiming Hamas combatants were in the area. And that's compounded onto cutting off the food, water, aid, and electricity for Gaza that they already controlled. Why else would you cut those off if not to target civilians?
They could have denied it or manufactured evidence that there was a legal target there, yet they didn't. This makes it clear the IDF acts in good faith at least some of the time.
Does it? I don't see where it says these were smart bombs, the article says additional buildings were hit because they picked the wrong ordinance, (unless it's been updated since it was archived?)
So you're aware they claim they target Hamas, not civilians, and Hamas hides among them. Why don't you find that to be credible? There's lots of evidence Hamas does this.
The same reason one does not send their supply lines to enemy forces. Gaza declared war on Israel. It would be odd for any nation at war to supply a hostile nation during wartime while it remains belligerent. I believe this is only legally required if the area is occupied, and Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, (a blockade is not occupation.) Soldiers also run on food and water, and Israel is not responsible for Gazans, their government, Hamas, is.
I'll retract that these bombs were precision, that doesn't really help the argument since many civilians die when they do use precision bombs on civilian locations.
Israel claims they only target Hamas, in practice the vast majority of who they kill are civilians (mostly women and children). I've only found evidence of Hamas using civilian infrastructure twice in the 2014 war, which I can link if you want, can you share the evidence you've found?
The disengagement was not an end to the occupation, in many cases it became a more brutal form of it. It also highlights that the settlements never ended in West Jerusalem or the West Bank, only Gaza. I'll share sources for why international organizations regard the blockade as a continued form of occupation, it boils down to Gaza still being under Israeli military control with Israel controlling its imports, exports, food, water, electricity, sea access, air space, etc.
https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law
https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/10/28/israel-disengagement-will-not-end-gaza-occupation
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal-and-inhumane-blockade-on-gaza-as-power-plant-runs-out-of-fuel
https://books.google.com/books?id=hYiIWVlpFzEC&pg=PA429
This is the nature of war. In most conflicts ~90% of the casualties are civilians, in this conflict, only 61% are. Israel is fighting a relatively humane war, (although no war is humane,) so I find it curious that they seem to get more ire than other current conflicts with higher body counts and more civilian deaths.
I've read a lot of articles and seen a lot of videos with said evidence, too many to list them all. Here's an older NATO report with multiple sources showing that Hamas uses such tactics, here's the wikipedia aritcle about Hamas' use of human shields with many citations, and here's the IDF's youtube channel where they share video evidence.
This all seems reasonable to me given that they remain belligerent. If Gaza were not actively violent all this would seem inhumane and would violate many laws, but this is a nation at war with Israel that refuses to pacify itself and lay down arms. Letting supply lines be open and uncontrolled to a government whose stated purpose is Israel's destruction, a genocide of Jews, and ethnic cleansing of the levant, is absurd. Many international organizations are clearly biased against Israel and are holding them to unreasonable standards.
"only 61% civilian casualties" require you to believe all men above 16 who were killed were hamas
I'm still waiting on someone to provide for me a single source where Hamas or the Palestinian Authority admitted that one of Israel's strikes hit something that wasn't civilian.
A few things about the civilian casualty statistics: the statistic that 90% of casualties in wars are civilians don't seem to be supported from what I can tell. It varies a lot but for example the civilian casualty ratio for WWII was like 67%. For the 2008 Gaza war the civilian casualty ratio was more like 74% (noncombatants) and 64% for the 2014 war (unless you only look at IDF sources, then it's more like 40%). I can't really get details on the 61%, are they counting all males 14+ as combatants? Even then it comes to 69% civilian casualties. I don't see how they got to 61%, which is still very high for modern conflicts as stated in the article you linked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
https://gwern.net/doc/politics/2010-roberts.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_strikes_and_Palestinian_casualties_in_the_2014_Gaza_War
You find collective punishment reasonable? You seem to believe Gaza is somehow its own nation despite being an occupied territory. Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem have always been under Israeli military control since 1967, when Israel aimed to take those territories by initiating the six-day war. Previously, Israel ethnically cleansed Palestine during the civil war and war for independence in 1947-48 with Plan Dalet and its previous iterations. After independence, the remaining Palestinians within now Israel were subject to harsh military law, until eased to 2nd class citizens they are today. Meanwhile, those military practices have been implemented on the West Bank, Gaza, and east Jerusalem since 1967. Except Gaza with the unilateral disengagement and blockade, which in many respects is harsher than the brutal martial law ongoing in east Jerusalem and the west bank. Palestinians have had no civil or human rights under Israeli military control. This is an apartheid state. Popular resistance began as nonviolent with the 1st intifada, until violence escalated after the IDF responded with lethal force. Violent resistance to the apartheid did not come out of nowhere. Before 1948, while early Zionists like Ben Guerion were advocating for partition, Palestinian officials were advocating for a unitary state instead of partition. Israel has never been interested in peace because they covet the Palestinian land but without the Palestinians. Keep in mind Israel as it exists today, is an apartheid state for the Palestinians. Not only do you ignore the 2017 Hamas charter, but that article doesn't represent the 1988 charter quite right. Yeah of course the 1988 charter is super terrible, it was created by a fundamentalist resistance group under occupation and had no popular support. That doesn't reflect the will of Palestinians at all. The two most popular goals are sovereignty and right to return, not genocide. This has been a cycle of violence between the Colonizer/Occupier and Colonized/Occupied. A one state solution with equal rights for all is what needs to happen with international pressure for this cycle of violence to end.
https://imeu.org/article/plan-dalet
https://forward.com/news/470923/israel-land-conquest-1967-occupation-six-day-war-plans/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/12/17/born-without-civil-rights/israels-use-draconian-military-orders-repress
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations
https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/palestinian-arab-congresses
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace
Here, let me fix that for you:
The Israeli Army, after ten weeks in which they have repeatedly and intentionally hit non-military, civilian, neutral observer, refugee and journalist targets; in which they have deliberately and indiscriminately murdered thousands of noncombatants during acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide, during which they've also deliberately murdered their own unarmed and half-naked citizens; bombing hospitals, refugee camps, and the supposed "safe evacuation corridors" they explicitly told the civilian population to use; and after repeatedly lying about and defending their attacks; an onslaught which has been met with almost universal condemnation from the community of nations; has finally admitted, after ten weeks of indiscriminate slaughter, that maybe, just maybe two of their attacks might've been misjudged - Oops.
Citation? They claim they attack military targets and have now admitted fault when they didn't. Without evidence that this is their intent, this baseless accusation doesn't hold water.
Self-defense against a hostile nation massacring your civilians is neither. Palestine, on the other hand, is quite explicit about their desire to do both, and their forces in fact did commit genocide and ethnic cleansing when given the chance, when Jordan annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem. Look it up.
Deliberate? Citation needed.
They've been pretty damn clear they will attack Hamas anywhere they are found. If only you had as much animosity for the ones putting these civilians at risk by hiding among them and making these strikes into valid military ones as you do the IDF.
Especially the Arabic ones, who ethnically cleansed Jews from their lands when given the chance.
Lol, there were no "maybes" in their statement, they took responsibility. So why not lie about these as well? It's clear you are biased against Israel, and hold them to a different standard than those they are defending against.
Or you know, maybe they lie about the vast majority and tell the truth when no other option is viable. The clue with lying is that you do not want to get caught after all. Speaking of bias by the way, you clearly are quite biased yourself, mr. "citation needed or genocide did not happen".
Part of the excuse was improper choice of bomb for a densely populated area that would cause disproportionate damage. So it's kind of an admission of fault, but kind of saying there was some justification that there was a valid target still. But with such disregard for civilian life, even if there is a valid target it is messed up. Proportionality rules and evaluations don't seem to matter to Israel.
A legitimate criticism, I appreciate your reasonable perspective. The risk of making civilian shields an effective tactic is that then one can expect more of them to be used in the future, but there really are no good choices here, only less bad ones. It is estimated that in most conflicts ~90% of the casualties are civilians, in this conflict, 61% are. By this metric Israel is fighting this war relatively humanely despite the dense urban environment, although I suspect that is of little comfort to Gazans.
Direct quote from your link
https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
Source of 61%:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-israeli-army-has-dropped-the-restraint-in-gaza-and-data-shows-unprecedented-killing/0000018c-4cca-db23-ad9f-6cdae8ad0000
Idk. I will need to look for the news articles, but I thought I saw some US military officials (maybe off the record) stating that Israel's calculus for collateral or proportional damage are pretty reckless (to say the least). Also the civilian counts... How liberally are they counting all males aged 16 or 18 and older as military combatants? And choice of weaponry or bombs just unjustifiable for the targets they select?
I think the NY Times also did a good job confirming Israel was dropping bombs in areas they told civilians to move to which is also a problem.
I think Israel has justification and obligation to go to war with Hamas after Oct 7h, but their bloodlust is becoming unconscionable. They need a lot more discipline in their approach. That Israeli bloodlust and hamas use of civilians as human shields is fucked.
Alternatively, randomly admitting fault on rare occasions confuses the situation and gives ammo to people who are desperately grasping at any "evidence" to forgive genocide.
Or perhaps admitting fault discredits those who inappropriately call self-defense genocide, or maybe it's just the right thing to do.
Guess they don't admit when they purposely hit non-military targets
Still waiting on credible evidence that they do that, every time I've asked for it I just get casualty figures and nothing proving intent.
With their track record for lying, you would probably be better off just to automatically assume that whatever comes out of their mouth is wrong
No you see when israel kills 10.000 children the burden of proof is on you. You have to prove that all those kids weren't terrorists!
So the journalists they've killed over the years were valid military targets?
Clearly not in the case of Shireen Abu Akleh, (which they also admitted fault to,) her death they are clearly liable for. It's unclear if deaths of journalists in this conflict is due to collateral damage, fog of war, Hamas attacks, crossfire, or other causes.
https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/
Good article, thanks!
That certainly is a list of casualties, which does not establish intent.
Shhh... the intent is a secret!
You don't have any evidence, got it.
Never said I did
Maybe not as official military doctrine, but idk the rhetoric seems clear to me
"The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy," Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari said, according to Haaretz.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that Palestinian civilians being killed en masse are simply “collateral damage” in his military’s destruction of Gaza.
“Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings. The ground maneuver will surprise Hamas,” the official said in a stark warning to the terrorist group behind the weekend assault that killed more than 1,200 Israelis.
Generally though, I'm sure that there's plenty of examples of troubling rhetoric to be found. I'm not even Israeli and watching Oct 7 footage pissed me off, I can only imagine the anger they must be experiencing.
Every time you get it but you seem to conveniently look away. Here it is again.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/
I read it and I responded to it some time ago. The only interesting claim it makes is regarding the tunnels not connecting, haven't read anything on it since.
Oh I see the IDF doesn't need to provide any evidence to bomb a hospital . We have to disprove their lies while they actively block any investigation. They can just say "KHAMASS!"
Just the tunnels being not connected is already a major proof that the IDF lied because that means it can't be a command center and you know it.
There's plenty of evidence! There's a bag of guns behind the MRI machine, there's footage of Hamas bringing hostages into the hospital, there's a confession by the director of the hospital...
As for claims the tunnels don't connect this has not been established, it is simply been called into question. The article simply says it cannot be established from the IDF footage. Israeli and American intelligence sources claim that it does
Yo that's crazy dude, I seem to recall the IDF themselves posting full videos of their 3D map of that tunnel network. You were really all about that a little while ago.
Oh wait it's still up on the IDFs channel!
Care to comment on that one?
I guess that them throwing a bag of guns behind an MRI machine and torturing a hospital director into a forced confession is all we need. Forget videos of the actual tunnels and "command center"!
Who needs easily verifiable evidence in the age that we have cameras, when you can just have random people confessing to things!
And Hamas getting medical treatment for a hostage in a hospital is sure weird. The IDF just lets all their hostages rot in cells without medial treatment.
The 3D models are interesting, not sure how you expect me to confirm or deny their validity.
There's no proof they tortured anyone, it's fine to be skeptical of evidence, but don't pretend it doesn't exist. I believe they also fired an RPG from the entrance of a hospital and ran inside but I'm not sure if it's this one or a different one.
If any of these are true, it makes these hospitals into a legal military target. If you don't like that, be pissed off at Hamas, not Israel for defending itself against those who use civilian infrastructure for military purposes, against international law.
" The 3D models and non existent tunnels which were the entire legal basis the IDF used were a complete lie and imma quickly pivot to more lies because I have been owned"
There wasn't an RPG fired this is a blatant lie too. It's clear that you are here only to spread propaganda for the IDF.
The IDF filmed a drone shot with one guy walking past the front of the hospital with an object looking like an RPG at a time the IDF already had surrounded the hospital. Totally not sus. And a man walking past a hospital with a weapon is also not a reason to bomb a hospital and claim there is a military base in there.
And now everything you claim has been disproven, surely you will admit to being wrong and go the IDF being genocidal Nazis illegally bombing hospitals right?
Lol, grow up.
I'd like credible citations that all of that has been disproven, I read the article you linked before and it doesn't say any of that. It's quite skeptical about the evidence but It does not disprove the IDF's claims.
The format of your comments is exactly what Hamas recommends their supporters should do on social media, right down to the Nazi comparison, they would be proud.
Sad that all you can do is gish gallop to more bullshit.
You have been utterly disproven. Stop being an IDF troll.
I read it and I responded to it some time ago. The only interesting claim it makes is regarding the tunnels not connecting, haven't read anything on it since.
When you have a group, like WorldNews, that is as radicalized by shock photos and even fake propaganda--reason and critical thought aren't welcome. If the only thing someone can see is a targeted picture of a hurt or dead kid, then they won't be able to hear.
It's the core of the Hamas propaganda program and why they seek maximum civilian casualties while living as millionaires in Qatar, the state who own and push the radicalizing stories they publish through Al Jazeera.
I appreciate your efforts, though, and I am sorry for the inevitable downvotes.
Yes indeed, much of what I see here is straight out of Hamas' social media playbook. It's unfortunate. It's good to know there's still reasonable people who don't fall for it, thanks.
I wear the downvotes of terrorists and terrorist adjacent like a badge of honor. I wish I could display them as my avatar.
The key to reducing the worry is that Lemmy is a super tiny insignificant community. And worldnews even more so, this is what insular communities do. They circle jerk propaganda and radacalize and rile each other up as a key core loop. Meanwhile rebuffing any facts, reason, or reality.
Downvotes mean you're doing it right.