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[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 53 points 9 months ago
  1. Ukrainians gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for territory guarantees. Russia reneged on that deal.
  2. The only reason NATO is involved with Ukraine is because Russia invaded.
  3. The fact that Russia is on day 718 of their "Three Day Special Military Operation" shows that they are not a superpower.
[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 18 points 9 months ago

Also, a peace treaty was offered by Ukraine (one that included giving up large parts of their territory). Russia refused.

This narrative that the West/NATO is "using" Ukraine is utterly detached from reality. Russia chose to make this a total war. From that point on Ukraine's only choices were fight or be destroyed.

[-] FriendBesto@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 months ago
  1. Agreed. Russia's reason to break the treaty is bull-shit. But we would be outright dishonest or stupid to deny that the USA has not been mingling since 1994 in not only Ukraine's internal politics any less than Russia has. To do so, would be to state that we or you are arguing in bad faith. And I say that honestly stating that I do not like Putin, or Russia's shitty geopolitics and grandstanding any more than I do NATO's or more specifically, the USA's geopolitical games and grand standing. USA's create a power vacuum in Iraq, precipitating the country into a civil war that killed over a million people. Meanwhile calling it merely "sectarian violence." Not something you reported saw a lot on CNN or MSNBC of FOX. There are many other such examples. The problem is that USA propaganda is really good and the average person tends to fall for it. But not so much if you follow primary sources. Which most people do not do. My claim that the average American could not find Ukraine in a map until recently is highly likely to be 100% correct.

  2. Wrong. The USA and the UK have been involved since 1994, with an escalation of soft power circa early 2000's. The Ukraine issue, or their otherworldly rampant corruption problems did not materialize into existence, in 2022, or 2014, or 2010. This is not me saying this, this is History books and multiple other media stating this. Only because I am Pro-Western it does not make me blind to reality. This would be a longer topic, if you ask a specific question I can try to look up some info for you.

  3. Do not care if Russia is a super power or not, friend, albeit I am not going to pretend that a Nuclear superpower with thousands of nukes should be geopolitically ignored. Whether I like it or not their interests must be taken into account. Real life is not a video game. To do so is to live in fantasy land. However, one would have to be dumb and stupid to not see that Ukraine has been used by NATO, to the last Ukrainian, it seems, in order to weaken Russian's military and purse. Not the first time the USA has done this, the USA funded the Mujahideen in Afghanistan along with a young Osama Bin Laden. Literally, the USA will and had funded religious Fundamentalist and terrorists if it means to attack Russia military via proxy war. How did that end up going for us in the long term, friend? Something happened around 2001, or something like that.

Do not fall for the propaganda, Ukraine has received over $133 billion because if the USA got its way it would use them as a military base. If you are willing to throw billions and hundreds of thousands of men into the grinder, it would be unfair to not say that it would not make a dent. We might not care about what Russia wants, but Russia does. Any super power with nukes would. I get that the USA sells this as a Humanitarian mission, but it is not. But selling it to the average person via emotion works so much better than sacrificing people or money for "Geopolitics." This is the most propagandized war in history, and it was done by ALL parties. Stating this or just reality does not make me a Putin supporter, it is just the easy hand-waving by emotional people or people saying so in bad faith.

It was stated in more Academic circles in 2022: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/05/04/yes-the-united-states-should-weaken-russia/

It is being said now to the normies: https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3462190-pentagon-chief-says-us-wants-to-see-russia-weakened/

Anyone who wants to read a still USA-biased but way more intelligent, nuanced take that tries to take reality into consideration over just emotional propaganda for the massed can check this. It is a long read, but there are no shortcuts for knowledge:

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/06/20/thirty-years-of-u.s.-policy-toward-russia-can-vicious-circle-be-broken-pub-79323

this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2024
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