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Could the USA "kick" a State out?
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2024
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The US Constitution currently has no mechanism to break any individual State out of the Union. Throughout our history, this has been interpreted as a sign that the Union is perpetual, and not able to be dissolved. This got put to the test in our Civil War, where a bunch of states up and said "We're Leaving" and the Federal Government said "You can't just do that". They fought a war over it, and the Federal Government won, proving its position correct by force.
With that said, the US was founded as a government of the People, and so if the people want to carve out a way for States to leave, they must first establish a mechanism via amending the Constitution, which requires a 2/3 vote in both houses of Congress (or a Constitutional Convention) coupled with 3/4 of State Legislatures ratifying it.
There is a provision, though, to make States out of other States. Maine and West Virginia were both formed out of land that belonged to Massachusetts and Virginia.
Wonder though, does that mean states can combine?
Actually, yes, but that has never happened.
Yeah, because you're giving up federal power for... a bigger state budget? Not really a great trade.
Until captain planet.
"By your ~~powers~~ states combined, I am Captain Planet!"
Make the MIMAL voltron.
Megasota
It's laid out very explicitly in the COTUS (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1):
The funny thing is that during the civil war, West Virginia seceded from Virginia, and Congress voted to allow it and they were accepted into the union. There are a lot of people who argue that when that happened it was unconstitutional. However, it has never been tested, as far as I know.
That's a new word. We have POTUS, FLOTUS, SCOTUS and now COTUS.
That would almost imply the Confederacy had legally left the USA, and Wrst Virginia legally left the Confederacy and joined the Union. Basically you could say none of this was un constitutional if the Confederacy was not a part of the USA at the time.
I would be doing it a disservice to try and explain it myself, but there were a lot of legal theories on how they could justify WV without justifying the Confederacy leaving the union. It's an interesting topic.
Seems like it'd be easier, more honest and less "Jump through hoopy" to just say they left and we reconquered them. Unless you really don't want think states leaving is legal when it probably is.
You're mistaking the fact that I recognize a limitation of myself with something else.
If what I said wasn't fairly accurate, there'd be no need for legal arguments so arcane you don't feel capable of describing them accurately.
One thing I am pretty good at is recognizing blatantly bad logically fallacious arguments on the internet, such as the classic "false dichotomy."
No, you clearly aren't, especially if you think this is a false dichotomy. I'm sorry, you were right about your limitations.
You could just pass an amendment...
But specifically for kicking a state out I don't think the bar is that high. If the legislature and executive agreed then it could be done very quickly.
Oh, but there are all sorts of details to work out....
There's a lot to iron out. The Brits got screwed with Brexit, and they weren't even leaving a country.
it was worse than that and even dumber the UK was a founding member and had extra perks. That other EU members didn't get and they threw all that away. Even if they do join back they will never get that deal again.
and yet it's still the most logical thing for them to do, security, trade and otherwise. it'll hurt a bit, that sting is pride lol.... but it'd still be the best thing for both the UK and EU.
otherwise eventually I see Ireland unifying and Scotland going to the EU lol.
Presumably those have been worked out in the bill Congress passed.
No lol your second statement is literally just wrong. The only way to do anything like this would be through an Amendment, which equated to literally changing the rules bc the current rules do not allow for it.
Is there something specifically saying you can't?
No?
Question answered.
"Just" passing an amendment requires more than 75% of states to ratify the amendment. So even if all of Congress decided nuts to Delaware, we're moving them out, it would still go to the state of legislatures to be formalized
Oh no the amendment is for if a state wants to leave. Since there's no standard around kicking a state out at all, it defaults to 50+1 votes in Congress and a President willing to enforce it
This is literally just wrong dude
Why? How?
I expect at the very least you'd also need scotus to agree, though if legislative and executive are both willing to ignore them then ...profit?
Yeah that's the checks and balances. SCOTUS literally has no power without Congress or the President.
Yeah, but it wouldn't be "legal" unless scotus agreed it was, even if it happened anyway.
No. SCOTUS does not have to agree to everything. In fact there's no Constitutional power for them to take a law up for review without a case. They gave themselves that power.
I find it implausible there would be no challenge, so scotus would have to agree either passively by refusing to take the case or actively by taking it in order for its legality to be settled.
And I find it implausible that anybody listens to SCOTUS if we've gotten to the point that at least half of Congress is kicking a state out. It's certainly not a normal political environment at that point.
Eh. They just leave. Not being prohibited to do so isn't the same as not being allowed to, that's why they had a war last time. There is a very strong argument that Abraham Lincoln was a war criminal, he just wasn't philosophically wrong and also won.
What are you trying to say?
I was perfectly clear